Ep #201: Confidence: The Hard Truths with Elle Russ

Welcome to the Not Your Average Runner podcast. If you’re a woman who has never felt athletic but you still dream about becoming a runner, you are in the right place. I’m Jill Angie, a certified running and life coach, and I teach women how to start running, feel confident, and change their lives. And now, I want to help you.

Jill: Hey Rebels, so I have a super special guest for you this week, you are going to love her. Her name is Elle Russ and she is the author of the book Confident As Fuck, and you know how I feel about that title. Also the author of the book, The Paleo Thyroid Solution. She is the host of the Primal Blueprint podcast and the Kick Ass Life podcast. And she’s a fucking life coach to top it all off. She specializes in thyroid health, confidence, self-esteem, and writing.

So, Elle, welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to have you here.

Elle: Oh, thank you so much. And I was just telling you earlier offline for the listeners that we were introduced by Cassie Parks, one of our favorite people. I know you’ve introduced your audience to her many times. But, yeah, I had heard about what you were doing in your community many years ago and so it’s just perfect to eventually get to meet you and chat with you.

Jill: Yeah, super fun. And I just did a whole retreat with some of my clients on confidence. And it’s just, it’s one of my favorite topics to discuss and jam on. And as you know I just finished reading your whole book and I just loved it because it’s just all about like confidence, I think, is a really elusive thing to a lot of people. So like how would you define confidence? Let’s just dive right in. Stop, let’s not mess around.

Elle: Yeah, well, I think a lot of people are really confused about it or think it’s something it’s not. So for example, if you mention confidence to someone who is a quiet person, they might get offended because they’re thinking that confidence equates an outward confidence, right? Do you know what I mean? And they might get offended. Like I’ve seen that happen before with people, even friends that I know.

Or people have that like really bitchy, shitty boss, and they think somehow that bravado is confidence when it’s not, it’s just misuse of confidence, which is a bully, you know.

And so I think people really are confused about it, but just theoretically in talking about it, it’s not a fixed, anchored quality within you, okay? Meaning, the levels of confidence, your levels of confidence are always like the sum of the thoughts you think and the actions you take.

So it’s not reflective of your like capacity to actually succeed at something. It’s reflective, actually, of your belief in your ability to succeed at something or prevail at life in general or at a specific endeavor.

So since you can change your thoughts and actions, right, you know, then confidence and self-esteem is within your power. And we were talking about this offline, but it’s almost within your DNA heritage, because confidence provides an evolutionary edge.

It’s built into us, it helps us navigate new challenges, tasks, social situations, without anxiety, fear. And what does that do? That propels us in the direction of accomplishing our dreams, yo. I mean, that’s really what it does.

And so here’s the funny thing, we look at modern life, you know, of course, my first book, Paleo Thyroid Solution, so I am an ancestral, you know, expert of some description here so I love geeking out on this stuff.

But nowadays like we have the luxury of wallowing in despair and self-pity and self-judgment, not in our hunter gatherer ancestor’s day. Life was even more harsh, and unforgiving, and unrelenting, and throwing them challenges.

And can you imagine them moping the fuck around with their heads hung low, judging themselves as failures? “Oh, I didn’t catch the beast today. Oh no, that water source is tainted.” Like they might have been disappointed like, “Oh damn, this is some bad water, Joe just died.” Okay, like that can happen.

But at the end of the day to a hunter gatherer a victim mindset would have been a recipe for death. And a lot of that that I just said, comes from Mark Sisson’s book called Primal Connection, which is, you know, talking about the other, you know, we can talk about paleo primal health and what to eat according to our DNA and our primal blueprint. But then we can also really talk about the ways in which we were and how we developed.

And so there’s this guy, his name is Art De Vany, he wrote a book called The New Evolution Diet. But he’s fond of this saying which is, to the hunter gatherer there is no failure, only feedback. And so survival required that we regroup and forge ahead to the next challenge when we faced unfavorable circumstances. It required that. Yeah, we did things with a purpose, but if the outcome wasn’t to our advantage, we accepted it and moved the fuck on, trying again later, devising a new plan.

So this wallowing and the shit we do here, we all talk about with self-growth and self-help and what we’re all trying to get out of is something that is backwards from what is built into us and our hunter gatherer DNA ancestry. We’ve been evolving for 2.5 million years. We are really no different now than our ancestors were 100,000 years ago. They looked like us, they organized their thoughts like we do.

So, you know, it’s just, it’s interesting. So that’s sort of how I’ll intro it and then I’ll let you jump in and see where we go from here.

Jill: Well, so as you were talking through that, first of all, I love the whole concept of, you know, like our caveman ancestors like, “Oh no, I didn’t slay the beast today.” Right?

Elle: Right.

Jill: And, you know, just like going to another caveman being like, “Dude, what do you do when you don’t slay the beast? Like, I don’t know if I can feed my family, I’m so embarrassed. You know, my wife like gathered more food.” Like it’s crazy.

Elle: She gathered more berries than I did.

Jill: Right? But I’m curious, and this is sort of like off the topic, but like at what point do you think humans evolved like the nuance of emotion that we experience today versus what were probably just very like, you know, happy, sad, determined, angry?

I’m assuming there was like a pretty small cast of emotions 100,000 years ago. Like what do you think, where do you think that changed? And do you think like confidence is like kind of a current emotion versus something that we would actually have experienced 100,000 years ago?

Elle: I think it’s constant within us humans, but we lost our way when we evolved into modern life. And then things became different, right? Imagine too, life was way simpler back then, right? So we didn’t actually start settling down and creating – Like the day that we were like, “All right, this walking around shit is old, maybe we should just stay somewhere.”

It kind of started in the Middle East and it caught on in certain places. But it was 10,000 years ago, and we’ve been evolving for 2.5 and look like our ancestors of 100,000 years ago. So only 10,000 years ago, do we actually settle down.

Now, then maybe at that point, right? And I guess you would say at the advent of maybe like, you know, literature, writing, recording. And then you have like all of the arts and exposure to things that yeah, I mean, maybe you had a hand painting on a cave wall but it wasn’t as grand as it was when we settled down.

And it’s interesting, because then our focus was off of survival and became, right, the ins and outs of modern life and arts and, you know, music and all the stuff. Because we didn’t have to worry about that anymore. Now, of course there are some detrimental things that happened in the agricultural revolution to us health wise but forget that for a second.

So likely, again, it’s a modern problem and I think because we – And again, our thoughts and intellect have developed immensely, right? I mean, at one point people were like, “Fireball in the sky.” Right? Or whatever. You know, “Don’t go near a lake during the sky fire.” It’s like it’s lightning, no one understood it, right? They probably thought they were being punished. Who knows? There’s a million interpretations for what happened then.

So clearly, we became more knowledgeable, our brains grew and grew, particularly when we started eating meat back then. But as our brains grew, and as our culture and language continued and we got more exposed to other places and things, right? Like you’d be living somewhere and you’d never see a banana until some merchants brought some bananas. You know what I mean?

So, yeah, so I just think it’s just over time. I can’t pinpoint or don’t know exactly when. But again we had much simpler life. And so also, I would say our emotions were probably way harsher and unforgiving too. You know, because it was probably like, “Tough shit mofo.” But I don’t know that anyone was even wallowing. And those things are also learned as well, as you know. You know what I’m saying?

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: People learn behavior like that from parents and people. And so that probably just wasn’t a part of hunter gatherer life. But it also was a little bit probably like someone got a spear through the stomach and everyone’s like, “Oh well.” Maybe they didn’t even shed a tear because like that’s just how shit was and you moved on.

And so maybe they had, again, like you said, less empathy, less emotional capacity. I don’t know though, for sure. But certainly in unrelenting and harsh forgiving situations you move on and forge ahead, right? And that’s what they did.

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: So maybe they did stifle some stuff and it was unhealthy, who knows? And let’s be honest, some of them were dragging us by our hair into caves and shit. Like there wasn’t sensitivity training going on, right? So yeah, we’re probably nicer people, right? Sure.

Jill: Yeah. It’s just fascinating to think about like the evolution of emotions and all of that. But okay, so in your book you talk about things that confident people, and we’re talking about confident modern man, not confident caveman. Confident people do these things and they don’t do these other things. And I’m just wondering, if you can maybe highlight what are some things that confident people do and what are some things that they don’t do and why?

Elle: Well, they encourage, and foster, and celebrate the success of others. So on the on the flip side of that they’re not jealous and they don’t compete.

Jill: Oh, I love that.

Elle: So let’s take those two. So, when you’re confident you don’t have a feeling of a lack of abundance and you don’t feel that anybody can really take your place in anything. And you also know that when you compete you lose. And so what do I mean by that? Because people will be like, “Well, Elle, yeah, if you’re in like a running race, you’re going to have other competitors. Like you have to beat somebody, right? You have to compete.”

Yeah, but here’s the difference. So I would go into that running, and believe me, I win stuff a lot and I’ve been in these kind of things. Let’s say I were going to join a marathon. See, I wouldn’t be, see I would go in just going, “I’m going to be number one. I’m going to dominate and be number one.” But I don’t go in there being like, “I’m going to kick her fucking ass, I can’t wait to see her face when she loses.”

My sense of winning has nothing to do with your failure. I’m not reveling in any of that, and none of it is pertaining to my motivation to win. I’m just here by myself trying to be number one. So I believe when you compete against others in the way that I just mentioned, you lose. And I don’t ever compete with people and that’s why I win a lot, you know?

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: Now, here’s a funny story about that. So I’m that person, declared this is just who I am. And then one year many years ago I decided to do a stand up paddle race, which was like 10 miles down the coast of Malibu. And so I was like using LOA and I was like, “I’m going to win this motherfucker.” Like I declared it to people. I was like, “Hey, I’m doing a race. I’m going to win. Mark my words, first place, me.” All right, real confident, by the way.

I go in there, I show up at the beach, I see all these people, I’m like, “Oh, I got this. I got it.” I get in there, duh, duh, duh, long story short I did win first place. But here’s the hilarious part, the reason I won first place is that there just weren’t any other women in my category. So then I was like, “Damn it, actually, you know, I wish there was some competition in this motherfucker.”

I mean, yeah, I won, that’s like being the valedictorian of a class of two. I mean, it’s not really – Or like home school, you’re the valedictorian. So it was just kind of funny, but I’m not surprised that happened to me, right?

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: Given my philosophy, it was just kind of a funny because a little turn on that. So there’s that.

So then now also, let’s look at jealousy and envy. So some really interesting things. So when you’re envious of someone you’re like, “Oh man, like I wish I could have that.” Right? But jealousy has a different tinge to it and it’s a real negative and it backfires on everyone who’s jealous. And here’s how this goes.

When you’re jealous of someone you’re actually secretly hoping that the person you’re jealous of fails at the thing you’re jealous of them for. So you’re a fucking asshole. And that shit backfires on everyone I’ve ever seen.

Jealous people never have good friends, long term friendships. No one wants to hang out with jealous people. We know who they are. I can feel your vibe, we all know this shit. Like we know it, right? We see it, we feel it. When you know someone’s jealous of you, guess what, they are. Get away from that person. I don’t hang out with people that are jealous. Like if I sense jealousy with someone I’m like, “I’m out.” Because that’s someone who’s hoping for your fucking failure. They are.

And so we got to watch that. You got to watch that and you have to take care of jealousy. It’s one thing to be like, “Oh my God, that’s so awesome. I wish I had a private jet. I’m so happy. Oh, that’d be fucking cool one day.” Like that’s like lovely, you know, you’re happy for the person.

So on this whole flip side of encouraging others and then talking about jealousy and envy, or competing and losing, again, back to confident people encourage other people’s success. You know? And so if someone’s not doing that, they’re likely not confident truly. They could have confident abilities.

Like example, like you can get on stage and talk to 50,000 people with no problem, but it doesn’t mean you get off the stage and you’re not a people pleaser, and you don’t speak up in your life and you’re a total self-esteem wreck. You can have performance confidence, that’s easy actually. Right?

So when I say confident as fuck, it’s inside and out. And so we’re really mostly evaluating, right, that inside stuff because the outward stuff helps too. Yes, if you are so shy in this world, you’re going to have some problems and you might need help with literally like speaking up and being more outgoing in certain circumstances. But some of the quietest people in the room are the most confident. And the loudest people the most insecure, we know that game.

Jill: Well, and you actually said something in your book about like – Well, actually, let me like rewind this a little bit. So I think, and I’ve heard this from many of my clients, that like they sort of confuse confidence with being braggy, or being cocky, or like if you’re confident that means you’re just walking around talking about how great you are. And I think, like I think that’s the opposite. But can you say more about that?

Elle: Sure. Well, when we’re around someone that’s bragging or name dropping, right, it always feels gross and icky, right? No one is like impressed by that, we all kind of know. That’s an insecure person who feels the need –

Jill: Right.

Elle: Right, so that’s not confidence just because they’re outgoing and telling a story, or the loudest guy in the room at a party who’s demanded everyone’s attention. Again, that’s performance confidence. That’s the ability to barrel over everyone and demand attention. Which is a skill, but again, you know what I mean, it doesn’t mean they’re confident.

So also too, let’s look at the other side, There’s a quote, and it’s pretty harsh, but I think it’s really a good one. It’s by Andre Dubus, and he said, “Shyness has a strange element of narcissism. The belief that how we look, how we perform is truly important to other people.”

Jill: Hmm, I love that. So good.

Elle: So, you know, that’s the thing, and it’s so true because there’s a little bit of grandiose, you know, narcissistic thinking when you’re so shy you are so worried about what everyone else’s opinion is of you, right? And that is a thing you got to look at, because that will also help you untangle yourself out of it.

Jill: Yeah, right.

Elle: Which is part of the case because being confident as fuck is really not giving a shit about what other people think of you. Now, yes, do I want a good reputation as a coach, as a person in this world, as a podcaster? Yeah, you know, of course, right, that’s not really what I’m talking about.

But at the end of the day if no one bought my book, or no one liked my stuff, then whatever. I mean, if everyone was hating on me, I might have to evaluate it and go, “Is there a theme here? Is everyone complaining about the same thing?” Of course, let’s be realistic.

So yeah, no, the braggadocious, or the assholes, or the bitch at work who’s the alpha, she’s just an uncoached alpha who’s misusing her confidence and she’s actually really insecure on the inside. And this is another thing too, and, you know, you seem pretty confident so I’m sure you maybe had this experience reading the book.

But, you know, some people have asked me like, “Well, I’m already confident, you know, how am I going to benefit from this?” And I would say because confident people have pitfalls, you know? Naturally confident people who are super alpha have pitfalls.

You know, at a certain point in life we do misuse confidence. I was kind of a bully as a kid. Not like horrific but believe me I paid apologies to a couple of girls, you know, many years later. And, you know, I believe that that was just like misplaced confidence, it was that misplaced outward ability. That outward confidence that was just really misused because I had issues on the inside, right?

So you can kind of go both ways but there’s also pitfalls. We don’t want to show vulnerability. We don’t want to show emotion. High alpha confident people who are just sort of like that have the other struggle.

And so where less confident people are people who might be considered beta in the alpha beta scenario, they actually can accept compliments, they are better at receiving, they’re more diplomatic when they do speak up, which we can all learn from. And, again, they are more accessible.

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: Do you know what I mean? So there are pitfalls to both. And I think it’s important because I had to refine myself too. You know, I had misused confidence and a lot of areas and the struggles with the vulnerability and all the stuff that I was just blinded by.

Jill: And is it possible, right, because you talked about how shyness is, you know, can be like a little bit of a form of narcissism that you’re like, “Oh my gosh, everybody’s looking at me.” And you’re really worried about their opinion. And I think like when you talk about alphas, like people that are super confident, that are also like, “Oh, I don’t want to show vulnerability, it’s almost like the other side of the coin of shyness.

Elle: Yes, exactly.

Jill: It’s like, “Oh no, I have to be strong.” You know, because I think with any personality type, when you start focusing on other people’s opinions, and making that more important than your own, that’s when things sort of go off the rails.

And whether you’re confident or not confident that’s when like the most, you know – I don’t know, I don’t want to want to say like bad part of the – But like the least attractive qualities of that personality type get magnified when you’re so worried. Because I always say like other people’s opinions are none of my fucking business.

And, you know, like you talked about, okay, like if I get, you know, a whole bunch of book reviews or something and, you know, like if one person gives you a bad review and 99 people are like, “Oh my god, this is a great book.” Then like I’m not going to focus on that one person. I’m going to be like, “Yeah, they’re probably an outlier.” But if I get 99 bad reviews –

Elle: You know what’s even better about that? Wait, I love that you brought that up because what’s even better about the thing about the reviews is when my first book came out, I had people calling me in the first couple of days and they’re like, “So are you like on Amazon like looking at the reviews all the time?” And I was like, “No, not at all. In fact, I’ve never seen any of them.” Because guess what? That’s kind of resistance, isn’t it? “I hope they like me. I hope they – Do they like me?”

Jill: Right.

Elle: Right? And I was like, “I don’t give a shit. Fuck, if I helped one person in this world, then it was fucking worth it. Who cares? I don’t care.” And then one day people are like, “Dude, you’ve got like, 400 5 star reviews out there. Like you should take a look.”

And I mean, you know, but again, it was funny when people were like, “Are you…” And I’m like, “Actually, I’m not because I actually have faith in it and don’t care. So I don’t need to go look for approval. I don’t. I already approved of my fucking self when I published it.”

Jill: Exactly, exactly. Because I think we live in a world right now of like, “Okay, did I get enough likes on that post? Or am I getting enough views?” Right? And you can just really like get all wrapped up in, do people like me? And like allowing their opinion to matter more than your own.

Elle: Well, here’s a real simple one. A friend who’s like, talked to someone online. They had a great conversation. They’re going to go out with this girl and then they say to me like, “Yeah, she’s really great. We had this conversation. We’re going to go out Tuesday. Yeah, I hope she likes me.” Nope. Wrong. Don’t even walk into that date now until you fix that shit.

Jill: Right.

Elle: You do not hope she likes you. You don’t know this fucking bitch, she could be crazy. We don’t know. She could have killed her last husband. Like you just met her and had a two hour conversation. How about you go in there and it’s is she engaging and awesome enough for fucking me? How about I hope I like her.

Jill: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Elle: It’s just so simple. And it’s like in those stupid moments.

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: And I get that you’re excited, and you’re like, “Ah.” But again, you have to turn that around if you have that thought come up that’s a big indication.

Jill: Yeah, I hope I like her. Yeah. That’s so great. But I mean, I’ve even started doing that with like the clothing that I wear, right? It’s not like, “Oh, I hope it looks good on me.” It’s like, “No, no, that clothing is auditioning for me.”

Elle: I love that. Yeah, yeah, this fucking piece of clothing is lucky if it even has a chance to be graced upon my body.

Jill: Exactly. It’s just like it’s such a beautiful like flip and it puts you into this place of not, you know, not necessarily being cocky, but just being like, well.

Elle: Well, so here’s another one, here’s a great one. Sorry, I just thought about this. This is not in my book, but a friend recently – So because I’m a writer and stuff my friends will always be like, “Hey, can you take a look at this cover letter?” Or whatever, right?

So, my friend calls me and he’s in negotiations. He’s at the high corporate level so, you know, we’re talking big figures and big positions, and he’s negotiating a new job. And he gives them something and they come back and he wants to come back, right?

And in the comeback letter to explain why this is the amount that he whatever, he starts to go into explaining, like he starts to say things like, “You know, I have two kids in college.” Nope, nope. Why are you justifying? That’s another tenant of confident people. They fucking justify or apologize for shit that’s not their fault, but definitely don’t justify.

So I read this and I go back to him and I go, “You need to cut out that whole paragraph. They don’t need to know why the fuck you want this money, what your financial situation is. You owe them nothing. The bottom line is that’s your worth, that’s your number.”

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: But we often, and by the way, everybody’s been on the other side of this where you ask someone to go do something and they go and launch into a five hour, “Well, I got the kids to pick up.” I don’t fucking care. So you said no, just say no.

Like no one wants a 10 page email with the 15 justifications, it’s so weak guys. It’s weak, we don’t like it. When we’re on the other end of it be clear and just learn to say no and stop yourself when you’re justifying or explaining. A beetle in this world doesn’t need to fucking justify itself or its existence and neither do you.

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: So you don’t have to answer questions from people either. You know, you don’t have to justify your position. I remember, you know, it becomes, you know this, it’s like, “Hey, how you doing? Are you keeping busy? What you up to?” Like, first of all, I hate that. Like isn’t everyone trying to not be busy? I mean isn’t that kind of the goal? And also like then that puts upon the person, they feel like they got to be like, “Oh, these are all things I’m doing.” Right?

And so one time I remember someone was kind of like that. It was one summer many years ago and they’re like, “What are you doing? What do you got brewing? What are you working on?” I’m like, “Nothing, I’m going to literally spend the next three months at the beach, stand up paddle and fuck off and do absolutely nothing with no shame about it. What are you doing?” They were just like, “Oh, okay.” You know, because I was like, I’m not getting into this game of feeling like I have to list off things that you’re going to approve of how I’m operating my life or my business or what I’m deciding to do.

So I think people get caught up in that and then they feel bad after they go through that justification. Yeah, it feels yucky because you kind of, you got kind of duped into it. You really didn’t want to reveal things and you did.

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: And that’s, again, where boundaries are drawn. Confident people know how to do that. And they’re really good at saying no and not justifying.

Jill: Yeah, exactly.

Elle: Or defending. You know, so like in an offense versus defense I’ll always take offense, usually. Sometimes it can be offensive, even though it’s awkward.

So one time a guy, a stranger said, “What do you do?” And I said, “I’m a writer.” And he literally said, verbatim, “Okay, so like are you a real writer who makes money at it? Or like do you like work at Starbucks, but like do something else on the side or whatever? Write at Starbucks but like do something else on the side?”

Okay, now, all right, so you just want to murder the person, like right now. And everyone listening is like, “Oh, this fucking guy.” Right? So here’s the thing. Now, one person, I’ll tell you what I said but one person had been like, “Oh, you should have like pulled out your book and been like, I’m a bestselling author.” And I was like, “No, wrong answer.” Wrong answer because now I’m defending and justifying myself to this fucking dick who kind of just said a patronizing rude thing to me, no.

So instead, I said, “Wow, dude, that’s rude as fuck. Would you go up to a real estate agent and say, Hey, do you just have your real estate agent license, but you don’t sell houses and you live at home or?” And he’s like, “Well, I mean, I mean, no, that’s different.” I go, “No it’s not, it’s not different. It’s not different, it’s really the same.” And I said, “But luckily for me, naysayers like you, every time you fucking say some shit like it just rises me, like just launches my success. So thank you.”

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: Now, people would be like, “All right, that was kind of shitty, Elle.” Yeah, well, you know what? Sometimes. Sometimes I’m not available to be patronized like that and I’m going to kick it back.” And that’s also part of my ancestry DNA. And I exercise that.

Now some people would be like, “Oh, that’s ego or shouldn’t you -” No, because we always have those moments where we’re like, “God, I wish I said that.” I don’t have those moments because I say it.

Someone bullies me, they get a mouthful of murder. They regret it. They regret it. It rarely happens, I’m never challenged on it often because, again, I don’t exude that. And the people that get challenged on it often are the ones that aren’t confident. You will always be challenged on this; you will get bullied until you stand up and say no.

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: So I don’t have that challenge, I may have other challenges. But so that’s a situation where, right, do you see the difference there? I could have sat there like, “No, no, let me…” Instead of really just call that what it was, that’s fucking rude. Why would you say that to someone? Now, maybe that guy thought twice about it. I don’t care what he did with his life, but I felt awesome.

Jill: Well, and I think that’s the thing, right? Like he might take his shitty attitude and go elsewhere. He might have actually thought about it and thought, “Oh, you know, actually that was pretty rude. And maybe I’m not going to be that way anymore.” But, regardless, like you don’t carry the residue of that, because you just, you know, like you just kind of were yourself in the moment and boom, done. Move on.

Elle: Mm-hmm. That’s right.

Jill: So this is kind of related but, well, this is definitely related. Like how do you stop caring what other people think so you’re not people pleasing and defending yourself? Like, how do you get to that point? Especially if, because you seem, you know, clearly somebody who has sort of had this as an attitude for like, many, many years.

But what about the person listening right now that’s just like, “All right, that’s all fine and good because you were born confident. But that’s a skill I’m going to have to learn. Where do I start?”

Elle: Right, well and it’s not that I haven’t had challenges along the way, which we will talk about. So let’s say you’re at ground zero, and ground zero would be you can barely talk to anybody you’re so shy.

And I have a best friend who is this person who didn’t have a friend until they were 35 years old. They’re now 50. They were debilitatingly shy growing up to the point where they couldn’t even talk to anyone, not even like a coffee worker at Starbucks or something like that.

And so in that situation they did an amazing thing. They actually hired a social coach who took them around in public and helped them start conversations with employees at stores and things like that, right? Because employees are going to be nice.

And if you’re at ground zero, then you might need to take an intervention like that. Right? And now, if you met this person today, you would never – It’s laughable that they were ever shy. It’s laughable. People do not believe him. We have to like confirm it because he’s so outgoing, he talks to everybody. It’s hysterical. You would never know.

So yes, if you’re at ground zero you start there. Most people aren’t at ground zero, most people just need to start speaking up. So I will come back to this, but you mentioned people pleasing and this is important.

First of all, if you think you’re a people pleaser, then you need to read Dr. Robert Glover’s book, No More Mr. Nice Guy. And there are nice girls too. Even though it’s written mostly for dudes, but you’ll get a lot out of it. Or look him up and listen to some interviews with him.

So when you’re a people pleaser you are saying things, doing things that you don’t like or you don’t want for fear of either rejection or to please other people based on what you want them to think of you. Usually people pleasers are the people where, people say this about them, “Poor Elle, she’s just, you know, she’s just too nice.” Right? Okay, you know that one, right? We’ve heard that about many people.

No, you’re not too nice, you are a fucking liar. When you are a people pleaser, you are a liar.

Jill: Yes.

Elle: Just come to terms with it. You are lying to everyone.

Jill: Say it one more time for the people in the back.

Elle: If you are a people pleaser, you are not too nice, you are a liar.

Jill: Yes.

Elle: So, it is the most inauthentic form of being, okay? And what does it create? So now you’re lying to someone because you’re afraid or whatever. It creates passive aggressive behavior, covert contracts, and then not only that, but you will never trust anybody because they don’t really know your real opinions and your real self because you’re not putting that forth because you’re a fake ass liar. So you’re never going to trust anyone, you’re always going to have these fucking issues.

And by the way, every single people pleaser I know, this shit backfires on them and pummels on them all the time. I currently have a friend in Dr. Robert Glover’s group for people pleasers, for men, who is, you know, in his 50s and he is really coming out of – And it’s tough, because he almost has to manufacture not being a people pleaser.

So for example it’ll be even something like let’s say he has a nice conversation with a woman he met online. And she’s great but he doesn’t really want to meet her in person. But see he feels bad, so like now he kind of feels like he should meet her because he feels bad. Like what’s the feeling bad about there? You don’t fucking want to meet her, who cares? Like what are you trying to save face for? Where are you saving face in this world?

Jill: Right.

Elle: Do you see what I’m saying? And so then what does that do? Now you’re leading the person on, right, you’re going on a fake date with them just like because you don’t want them to go out in this world and think you’re not nice because you didn’t meet them after a good phone call. I mean, fucking, I mean, let’s look –

Jill: I think there are entire marriages built off of people who didn’t know how to say no after a first date.

Elle: There are, the person I’m talking about had an 18 year marriage and, you know, like they were a people pleaser and it was a disaster. So it’ll be a life ruiner for you if you continue on this direction. And it is inauthentic, which is exactly the quality that people love and admire about people with confidence. Because confident people tell it like it is, like me.

So one of my favorite compliments that I’ll never get over is when people are like let’s say, you come to me and you’re like, “Hey, listen, I got a question for you. I need your opinion on something because I know you’re not going to lie to me.” I’m always like, “Oh, thank you. I’m so glad that -” Right? Or my friends would be like, “How does this look on me? I know you’re going to tell me the truth.” Right?

Now, does that mean that I’m not going to edit myself? No, I’m not a dumb ass, guys. If I’m at your mom’s house for Thanksgiving and she’s got a stupid sweater on that she just bought and says she loves it. Am I going to be like I don’t like it? No, come on, like I’m in the real world here, right? I’m not always going to speak up. You got to choose your battles wisely. There are places for white lies, right? Okay.

So it’s not never do it, you know what I mean? And here’s another example, like I have a friend who loves live concerts. She sees them all the time, like we’re talking five days a week. I mean, this chick is practically, just she’s always at a concert. I’m not a big concert person, I’m just not. She knows this. Over the years she’s invited me to several, she got the hint after a while. I kept saying no, she gets it.

But she called me up one time and said, “Hey, look, I know this is not your thing but I’m going to go to this concert thing and there’s going to be so and so there and blah, blah, blah. And I kind of need a wing woman.” See, now I’m in. Get it? Now it’s different, I’m doing something I don’t want to do but I want to do it because it’s a different reason. Now it’s because I’m, you know?

Jill: Right.

Elle: It’s not that I don’t ever do anything I don’t want to do, right? There’s nuances, right? And yes, you should edit yourself. And yes, I’m not going to tell your grandmother her sweater is stupid at her Thanksgiving party.

But the authenticity is really important because that is why we trust confident people too. So if you want to be admired, trusted, even by your just pure friends, and by the way, you need confidence if you’re a stay at home mom. You’re going to have to deal with some other kid’s parent who’s a bitch. You’re going to have to deal with a teacher that’s a problem. You’re going to have to stick up for your kids. You’re going to have to also exemplify it in order to teach it.

So this is not about getting out there being an influencer or a podcast or a public speaker like me. I’m not even suggesting you need the outward confidence that I have. But you do need it inwards or you’re never going to get anywhere. Because the truth is that unless you speak up, you’re never going to get what you want. From the bedroom to the boardroom and everything in between. You’re just not.

Jill: Yeah. It’s true. That’s true.

Elle: So back to where do you start? Well, it starts with speaking up. And it might start real small. Maybe you never return the steak when it comes cooked in the wrong way, well start there. You send it back. You know, like again, it depends on where you’re at. If you’re at ground zero, you got to do a social coach thing and maybe some therapy. If you’re not, most people aren’t at ground zero so then it’s a matter of –

And again, you know, going through my book, my book, the intent of it is to go through these areas of your life and scrape off the barnacles, right? Going through some parental garbage. Going through being a downer and dealing with donors in your life and assessing who those people are. Dealing with shame.

You know, there’s like, as you read, you kind of go through and you realize, all right, these are kind of the things I see where I might need to clean up things about, things that are underlying and possibly undermining my confidence.

Jill: Yeah. Well and I think that you can also be, and you’ve alluded to this earlier, like you can be confident in one area of your life and not confident in another and just recognize that like, okay, well, I got it nailed over here. But, you know, like I’m great on the job front, but speaking up to my husband at home, maybe not so much. Maybe like, that’s where I need to do the work.

Elle: This happens so much by the way, I’m so glad you brought that up. Because I even pointed it out to a friend the other day. I have a friend who is the most ballsy upfront person when it comes to communication with romantic relationships. Like I’ve never seen someone more just like, there’s just nothing, like very transparent and authentic. Yet very difficult for them to go ask for a raise.

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: Right, or the like famous artist friend of mine who can barely go talk to a girl but can stand in front of all his artwork at a show and be like totally fine. Right?

Jill: Yeah, it’s fascinating thing.

Elle: And when you point out these contradictions in people what you realize is that you’re incongruent in your thinking. And we all have this, I had it about money. My thing about money was I just hated dealing with it. I wanted to avoid it. I had to get coaching on it because I just was like, I didn’t want to look at it. So then what would happen is like, you know, I’d realized a year later that some yoga place had still been taking out money monthly. And I’m like, damn it.

And what I realized is when I got the coaching on it and really got into it is that it was so incongruent. Because here I am treating money like it’s inconsequential, not a big deal, doesn’t have it. Yet, I do believe that it is very consequential. I love it. I respect it, I do. You know what I mean? So, I’m a hypocrite within my own self on that topic, right? I feel one way, I truly believe this thing about it but I’m treating it another.

And so that happens, like you said, with the confidence thing. Like you’ll realize where you’re super confident in an area. Or here’s the thing, you might be confident in your ability in something but not confident to share it.

So like I heard a PhD who’s really bright say to someone else, “You know, the problem is, is like I really know my shit, it’s just that like I’m not confident.”

Jill: Like what?

Elle: Like so they are confident in their ability in a thing or their knowledge, but they’re not confident about putting it out there or sharing it. And so you do need some level of outward confidence in order enough to share anything that you think is valuable. And that could be like nobody’s coming to your door, when you’re an artist to be like, “Hey, I heard there’s a painter that lived here. Any paintings I want to buy?” Like you have to put yourself out there in this world, usually with almost anything. And so the same goes for this.

You’ve got to – I used to be a recruiter back in the day so I’ve interviewed, you know, hundreds of people, I used to hire people. And we would rather hire, I would rather hire someone who is confident than someone who is skilled in a thing. Because the characteristics of confident people, like being proactive, like going above and beyond, being on time, like some of these things are really more important than someone who’s skilled in the thing but then like awkward socially.

And that’s important because also when you’re in front of an employer and you’re like – Because this thing about humility we can maybe get into but I really don’t like it because we’re always taught to be humble or not say anything good about yourself. Good luck in a job interview when they ask you what your top five characteristics are.

Jill: Exactly, right? Yeah, like who’s going to hire the person that’s like, “Well, you know, sometimes I’m kind of good at doing this thing. But I’m not great at it but, you know, I’m pretty good.” Like, nobody’s going to hire that person.

Elle: Right.

Jill: They’re going to hire the person that’s like, “I am the best. You should hire me and here’s why.”

Elle: That’s absolutely true. And you’ve got to sell yourself. And so that’s there, and then especially too people who – I’ve seen this happen at, you know, I host Primal Blueprint podcast, which is really owned by Mark Sisson and Primal Kitchen, Primal Blueprint.

And I’ve worked for the company for like eight years and because I worked closely with the owner before he sold it people would come to me when they needed to ask him for a raise because they were like, “I’m scared.” Which is funny because I don’t fear Mark or anyone, you know, but people were like intimidated.

So they’d come to me and here’s what I noticed over the years, all of the people that came in and just declared what they needed to get for their salary, got it. And all the people that came in who were like weak and were like, “Well, I don’t know. Somewhere between here and here.” Always felt like they got gypped on their salary and didn’t feel like they were being paid their worth when someone over here was making way more. And the only difference I saw was the confidence in which the person declared it.

Jill: Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

Elle: Like except for one of the employees went in there and said, “Well listen, I can’t make less than 70K.” Just said it. I was like, “Damn, right on man. Like there you go. Right there. Yeah, confident.”

Jill: So good.

Elle: And also, would you want to hire that person? Fuck yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Jill: So good. Okay, so before we close up, I want to like dive into one more question that I’ve got. And you had alluded to this earlier, I said, “Oh, you’re like kind of a pretty confident person, you seem like you’ve always been confident.” And you said, “Oh, I’ve had some stumbling blocks along the way.” So like I think it would be helpful to hear where you had, you know, problems and how you kind of evolved past them into the version of yourself that you are today.

Elle: Right, so I’ll give the cliff notes on a chapter called shame disables confidence in my book where I talk about – So I’m permanently disabled, I have a hand disability the I’ve had for 20 years. You cannot tell, by the way. If you saw me, you’d be like, she looks fine to me. Playing a game of ping pong with you, like you wouldn’t even know. Which actually is kind of part of the problem.

So when I was first disabled at the age of 22, I immediately had my first thought of shame because I couldn’t even really move my arms and I couldn’t like wipe myself. And I mean, I was debilitated. Literally, my arms were like almost dead, inflamed, bloated things that like it was painful to just take a shower. Like it was horrible, it was just 24/7 pain.

And so I remember just having that first thought of shame where I was like, “Oh my God, who’s going to ever want me? Who’s going to ever want me? What guy is going to want me? I’m 22 and I can’t even fucking lift a fork to my mouth. I can’t take care of kids. I know what it’s like, I’ve taken care of kids. I can’t get them ready for school. I would need to be a gajillionaire and have support everywhere to even be a mom or a wife.” And then I was like, “I’m not going to be hypocritical; I wouldn’t choose someone with fucked arms at 22 either, right?”

And I sat there and I was just like, “Oh fuck, no one’s going to ever want me.” And so, you know, I didn’t really address that until much later. And if there was something I would have, could have, should have go back and do would have been I would have addressed the shame of my disability way sooner. Because the shame of my disability was worse than the disability. The disability, like it was less disabling than the shame.

And what did this do to me? It really F’d me up in confidence in relationships romantically and also friendships. Because I wouldn’t want people to know, back to I don’t want to see me as a weakness. I don’t want to talk about this whole sensational thing that happened to me, right? I don’t want to go through the whole thing again.

You know, it’s almost like I interviewed Bethany Hamilton once, the surfer who lost her arm at 13 to a shark, right? And when I interviewed her, I did ask her like, “Is there anything you want to avoid?” And she said, “Yes, please do not bring up, I don’t want to describe the actual shark attack.” I totally understand that, right? She doesn’t want to be retraumatized. Everyone go see it, everyone go witness it online somewhere. There’s reenactments of it, there’s a whole thing. And I get that, right?

So it’s kind of like for me too I didn’t want to go through the whole thing with everybody. I didn’t want to be the pity party. I didn’t want anybody to feel sorry for me. And I was so embarrassed and ashamed about it.

And here’s the thing, people were like, “Why are you ashamed? Like you got injured, like it’s not your fault. And this is the problem with well-meaning people, is that then you’re kind of telling me that I’m stupid for being ashamed about something.

And I just want to say this to everyone out there, I don’t care if you’ve got moles on your back that are unsightly or you killed someone as a drunk driver 20 years ago, and you’re shamed about it. Shame is fucking shame all around, it doesn’t matter how ridiculous someone thinks it is. It’s real for the person in it. And it is debilitating.

And how it debilitated me is I’d be in relationships and I wouldn’t tell anyone this big story of my life, which is a very important story. It almost makes me want to cry now. Because what did I do? I attracted people who are really unemotionally available, because I couldn’t speak up.

So here I am speaking up in my life in every other way, I’m totally confident, yet I cannot even tell the guy I’m dating for a year. I met his kids, we’re together all the time, and I can’t even talk about it. What do you think that does, right?

So here’s what happened to me. I really got my ass kicked on this about seven years ago. I really thought I was going to marry someone that I met. It was an amazing relationship. But the one thing I noticed is I was like he’s not really, like he wasn’t verbally intimately expressive, but he would like show me he loved me. But there was not like I love you’s and a lot of –

Anyway, long story short, I remember describing it to someone like, I’m like, “He’s kind of like a little bit like a robot, but it’s kind of cute and endearing. And he’s wonderful to me but, you know, I wish he would like, we would have more, you know, you just go to bed at night and you’re like goodnight versus you know.” And after a while you’re like, “Huh, this intimacy isn’t there. I brought it up, long story short, we broke up and I remember I called my coach and I’m bawling my eyes out.

And I’m like, “This is like a cruel joke that the universe played on me. I did all this work and blah, blah, blah, and I find this great guy. And then the one thing, like the only thing wrong with him is that he just can’t be like verbally open and duh, duh, duh, duh. And he’s a fucking emotional robot.” And my coach kicked my ass and he goes, “Hey, did you ever tell him about your whole like disability story?” And I said, “No.” He goes, “Well, I guess you’re the robot.”

Jill: Yikes.

Elle: Yo, a katana sword to my stomach, worst day. Oh, horrible day, like fuck my life. And he was right. He’s like, “Elle, how do you expect to draw in emotional availability if you are unemotionally available?” And I’m like, “Well what do I do?” He’s like, “You’re going to have to deal with this fucking shame thing, man, you’re going to have to deal with this. You’re going to have to.”

And it was hard, like the first person I told after that, like the first guy, I cried through telling him the story of my disability. And now I can tell the whole story and not even give a shit, right? It’s hilarious. Now it’s like, oh my god, right. And I wish I’d gotten to that sooner, guys.

And I’ll tell you how it kept me on the outside of friendship. So I’d be like at my comedy theater, you know, I’m an actor, and also a TV film writer. So I’d be at a comedy theater like many years ago, you know, we’re a tight knit group of people and they’re all hanging out with each other and stuff. And I like didn’t get involved.

I treated it so professionally and a regret it a bit. I wish I could have created some better friendships there with people that I really do like, right? But I always wanted to stay on the outside because I was like, “I don’t want anyone to get to know me too well, because if they get to know me to well…” And then what does this do to me? Like it does to a people pleaser where we’re friends, we’re getting intimate. You’re telling me stuff about your life and then I’m not telling you this important thing about mine. And then there’s a part of me that goes, “Well, you don’t really know me so I don’t really trust how you love me.” You get what I’m going here? It’s a bad cycle.

And so that really screwed me up. And let me tell you the beautiful part of this that was really great. So I knew I had to start doing this and I was talking to a fellow podcaster named Karen Martel. We had just started get to know each other and we were just having a chat. She’s like, “Hey, you want to hop on a Zoom and just chat?” I’m like, “Yeah, this is a cool chick.” Right?

So we’re talking, this was a couple years ago. And she’s like, she asked me a very direct question. When I got disabled, I got long term disability, my company had had a policy for long term disability. And so I had gotten like a preschool salary worth every year, you know, kind of thing. And so I kind of had like this base in my life, right?

And so she had said, “Hey, I know you do all these things, but like what’s the steadiest part of your income or whatever?” You know? And now for years I would semantically dance around this topic because then it would go into the disability and I wouldn’t want to talk about it, right?

So I would kind of lie but not, but lie by omitting and like, you know. So in that moment I said, “All right, you have a chance. Like you have a chance to just fucking rip this band aid off, just try this out.” So I told her, told the story. And after I told the story she said, “Oh my God, Elle, that is what happened to me. My hands got disabled because I was a rolfer for 15 years.” Which is very intense massage bodywork, very intense with your hands.

And she said, “And I had always wanted to be a nutritionist but I thought it was a joke, just like you thought being an actor, performer, writer was a joke.” She said, “And then the universe cut the golden handcuffs off of me.” And then I was like bawling my eyes out because what better message from the universe to be like the first person you share this with, like out of your shame thing is another woman who also has a hand disability and totally understands.

Okay, but anyway, crazier, then a couple weeks later I interviewed a woman named Jessalyn Moya. She’s a model and a spokesperson and she was on the podcast, and someone had told me she had a health issue that was interesting. And I didn’t know what it was, I figured I would just find out on the podcast. And she says, “I got into a freak accident that severed nearly every tendon and nerve leading to my left hand. And after eight hours of emergency surgery I woke up and I couldn’t feel my left hand. And my one of my first thoughts was, oh my God, I’m ever going to feel a guy put a ring on my finger.”

Jill: Oh.

Elle: I know. Right? Again, that thought of shame.

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: We’re not worthy or, right. So anyway, I’m bawling. I had to put my microphone on mute. And I’m like bawling on the phone, I’m like what are the odds?

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: What are the freaking odds, guys, that I come out of this shame thing after 20 years? I’m finally like, “All right, I’m going to do this.” And then this happens to me with two women who have hand issues and then like, you know, we’re talking about it and Jessalyn – Let me wrap that story up. Jessalyn did get engaged recently. She does have a ring on her finger. And I’m just like, that made me so happy.

But long story short I got disabled through a repetitive strain injury. I was working in the technology industry and I contracted to computer consultants out to fortune 500 companies along California. And I was really successful, making six figures at the age of 21. And then literally one day, my arms just, that was it.

Now, I don’t live in chronic pain anymore because I haven’t had to work 40 hours a week on a computer. So I do use a lot of voice but that is also what created my dreams. So if I could also, you know, and again I have time, I don’t know how much longer you want to go. But some of the best gifts in life come wrapped shit.

Now, I also experienced shame when I had hypothyroidism. My first book, Paleo Thyroid Solution, is about my experience of getting horribly, big, bloated, fat, acne ridden, hair falling out, like all the 30 symptoms. And having to solve it myself. And I did have a lot of shame and issues that I had to deal with around body image around that time, of course. And so I really have a great empathy for that.

And both situations gave me such great empathy for so many people. Including disabled people, people that either can’t control their weight or have an eating disorder of some kind, or have, you know, hypothyroidism. Or haven’t fixed it yet, of course, because it’s fixable.

But, you know, these two things were probably the worst things that happened in my life. Being debilitated like about seven years of my life with hypothyroidism until I fixed it. And then also, you know, getting permanently disabled at the age of 22.

When you can’t use your hands repetitively eight hours a day, you tell me what job I can have, right? So 20 years ago, and this happened to me, I was like, “Guess I have to use my voice.” And you’re listening to me now.

So I write books with my voice, of course, I edit them with my hands. And you know, of course, you still have to write. I get to speak, you know, and there were no podcasts back then, by the way, guys. There were no podcasts, I couldn’t just do my own thing. And so I went about the business of like, all right, I guess I have to actually go back to the thing I always wanted to do but thought was stupid and a joke. So I wanted to go become a lawyer, and be wealthy, and be financially stable. And the universe cut the golden handcuffs off and were like, “Nope, looks like you have to talk.”

Jill: Yeah. But, I mean, I guess I completely agree with this. Because I know I struggled with confidence about my body and about like my worthiness. I always had confidence like, “Oh, I’m a smart girl, I can figure out whatever. You know, I’m a great writer, blah blah blah.” But I always had this belief that like I wasn’t attractive, and I was too fat to be loved. You know, just like the bullshit stories that we tell ourselves that we absorbed from the media and stuff.

And I mean, it took me years to kind of get that figured out. And I kind of believe if I hadn’t gone through all of that, I wouldn’t be the person that I am today. So I’m super grateful. I’m grateful for it. And I look at my fat ass in the mirror. And I’m just like, thank you.

Elle: There you go.

Jill: Right, like thank you.

Elle: And that’s an interesting thing too, is it’s like and I guess that’s what I would impart. So it’s not that you have to write a chapter about it or do a Facebook Live about your shame. But you do have to get flat with it, you have to get good with it. Maybe you do need to take it to the grave, that’s okay. You got to get to the point where you have no shame about your shame, whether it’s public or private it doesn’t matter. And now I don’t.

But I can tell you this, it is more disabling. So one of the things too, and again, like this disability story is, you know, much longer but because I have something you can’t see people don’t really have a lot of empathy for that. Right? When you’re missing an arm and you’re in a wheelchair people are like, “Oh, shit.” Right?

So it was tough to be a person where people are like, “I don’t get it, but you look fine.”

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: And then after a while you hear these kind of comments over time, you think, you know, I just better shut up about it, it’s not worth it. It’s not worth it. It’s not worth it because now I got to get into the story. And then I’m defending my own physical ailment. Like, are you fucking – You know what I mean?

So, it’s weird, but also I have like this different perspective of it. And I have a lot of empathy for disabled people. And I’ll say this, you know, someone always has it worse than you, right? And I remember one time I was driving and I get flare ups sometimes in my arms if I overuse them in certain ways.

And so I was having like an arm flare up and I was kind of tearing up in the car because when I have flare ups, then it kind of reminds me, you know, of the thing. And so I was just kind of tearing up a little bit in the pain of it and kind of feeling sorry for myself in the car. And I turn a corner and I shit you not, I look out the window and there’s a one armed guy drinking coffee outside of a coffee bean in LA. And I’m like, “All right, fuck my life, I’m horrible. I have my hands. All right, got it universe, this pity party is over right now. Guy has one hand, okay. At least I have both of them.”

You know, and so you can go down the line and play that game. The truth is that it really is, we can’t say what’s worse than something for someone else. And that’s why I said it really doesn’t matter. And people really thought I was like, it’s ridiculous. I don’t get why you’re ashamed about that. It’s not your fault. It doesn’t matter, I’m embarrassed. And I was embarrassed to have a health issue.

That’s the truth, it’s embarrassing, okay? And people would be like, “Well you shouldn’t -” Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s not helping me. Let’s get into it, you know? And so until I really got into it and realized these things, I wasn’t able to get over it. And so one of the best gifts of my life was coming to terms with that and finally getting rid of that shame.

And that’s really what kind of made me confident as fuck. I was already confident in these areas of life, except for over here because I was brushing that shit under the rug.

Jill: Yeah.

Elle: And so that’s my message, is there’s some area here, right, and to try to get good with all of them as much as we can would be the ultimate goal. To have that inside and outside confidence in everything that we do.

And that’s not to say I don’t have moments, like I’m not confident to take you bungee jump. And I’m never going to be and that’s cool.

Jill: Right.

Elle: You know, like there’s some things not worth being confident on. I mean, I don’t give a shit about skydiving or whatever. But like we know the areas we need to work in and where we have less confidence, right? And those are just where we need to target.

Jill: Yeah, I love that. I love that so much. Well, so Elle, thank you so very much for being here today. And what I want to know is like where’s the best place to send people if they want to get more from you?

Elle: Well, I’m most active on Instagram and you can just type in my name and I’ll show up. But it’s _ElleRuss and then elleruss.com. Now if you’ve listened to this and you like do have a thyroid problem, you can just go to my website, elleruss.com, in the top right corner is free thyroid guide. And it tells you like all the tests to get, it gives you a good start. You don’t need to buy my book, but there’s, you know, a great path to healing journey there.

But on my website, my books are on Amazon. And of course everything is accessed from my website. And then every Monday I interview people in the mind body arena on Primal Blueprint podcast. And every Wednesday, my cohost Tara Garrison and I just kind of talk shit and fun stuff about how to make your life kick ass. And that’s the Kick Ass Life podcast and we’re on YouTube. And you can also go to kickasslifepodcast.com.

Jill: Oh my gosh, that’s like the best name for a podcast ever. Because who doesn’t want a kick ass life, right?

Elle: I mean, there’s other podcasts that have probably like variations of that name. But yeah, I like that one, it’s very me of course.

Jill: It’s perfect. I mean, nobody says like, “Oh, no, I want to have a suck ass life.” Nobody says that, we all want a kick ass life, so it’s the perfect name. I love that.

Elle: Thank you so much for having me. And honestly like you’re a great interviewer, it was such a fun conversation, and I love all the content that you’re putting out to your community, it’s just right on. And I’m just so happy to know you and what you’re doing.

Jim: Same, same. I’m so glad we finally connected.

Oh, and one last thing. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, you have to check out the Rebel Runner Roadmap. It’s a 30-day online program that will teach you exactly how to start running, stick with it, and become the runner you’ve always wanted to be. Head on over to rebelrunnerroadmap.com to join. I’d love to be a part of your journey.