Ep # 327 How to dress your age when you don’t feel your age

Jill: Welcome to The Run Your Best Life edition of the Not Your Average Runner Podcast. If you’re a GenX woman whose brain still feels like a member of the breakfast club but the person you see in the mirror is starting to look a lot like your parents, you are in the right place. I’m your host, Jill Angie and we’re gonna dive into all the weird shit Gen X women are facing right now, so you feel less alone and a lot more empowered. Are you ready? Let’s fucking go!

Hello, my friends, and welcome back to the Run Your Best Life series, where I talk to experts in the field on issues affecting Gen X women. And today we are going to chat with the completely fabulous Judith Gaton about dressing your age when you don’t feel your age. I know you can relate. Now, Judith Gaton is the creator of the wildly popular Modern Charm School.

She is the author of How to Act Like a Fucking Lady, and she is the host of the Style Masterclass podcast. She believes that confident women leave legacies, and she has dedicated herself to helping and coaching women to do exactly that.

Now, real quick before we start, if you are a member of the Run Your Best Life program, do not forget to download the podcast companion from the members area to help you go deeper into this episode.

Are you ready? Let’s dive in.

All right, friends. I am here with the one and only Judith Gatton, Style Coach to the Stars. And I know, right? I love this., and we’re going to talk about how to dress your age when you don’t feel your age, because I feel like this is a thing that Gen X women are struggling with. We’re all like in our brains. We’re like, I’m still dressing like Molly Ringwald and Ally Sheedy but in reality, it’s more like the Golden Girls. And that doesn’t match up, right?

Judith: Hey, Bea Arthur was fly. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Jill: I literally have one of those caftans, caftans, is that how you say it, caftans? Yeah. I have one in my, in my closet that I’ve never worn. And every time I pull it out, I’m like, this looks really cool. But also like, I feel like Bea Arthur. I don’t know, but I think this is something that like Gen X is like really struggling with because we were a very rebellious generation. And I think our bodies have aged, but we are still in that space of like, I want to be wearing ripped jeans and I want pink hair and leather jackets and you know, all the stuff. But we feel like we should be addressing our age. What have you got to say about all that?

Judith: I think a great place to start though. And it’s funny cause I would have normally started this conversation with the idea of age appropriate dressing, but I actually think we should take it somewhere else first and then we can go there.

I think what I hear most from this generation of clients of mine. Is that phrase of, but I feel like I’m in my thirties. I feel like I’m still in my twenties. And then I look in the mirror and there’s this old woman, I had a client tell me this old woman staring at me and who the fuck is this person? And when did she arrive?Because that’s not what I see in my head. When I think of myself, it’s not my experience of myself in my body. And then I look in the mirror and I’m like, who, who, hi, who are you?

So I think. First, I want to normalize that experience. Like, please, friends, know, like, you’re not the only one. You are not crazy.That’s such a normal experience. And I think a lot of that has to do with us literally not paying attention to ourselves. And not getting used to our aging faces, bodies, like, whatever generation you’re in. And really, you become a surprise to yourself because you literally have not spent time with your own face.

Jill: Yeah. I, like, that really hits home for me because I feel like that’s what happened to me. You know, I, I had one face and then I turned 50 and all of a sudden I had a different face and I had different hair and like my body started like changing and, you know, it was kind of like reverse puberty, I guess.

And I’m still reconciling that, I guess. And so, I think and then like the style piece of it, I feel like I’m still dressing. Like I’m in my thirties. And part of my brain is like, that’s not, you shouldn’t do that. You should dress your age. But I’m like, I don’t even know what my fucking age is anymore.

Like, I feel like I’m all the ages in my brain. I’ve, I’ve got one biological age, but like. What, what even is that? And so I love that. I do. I, this is an experience I’ve had. I feel like I woke up at 50 and was like, who, who is that exactly what you said? Who is that person in the mirror?

Judith: Yeah, and I think literally the simplest thing, and this sounds so simplistic, and some of you are like, that’s super reductive, there’s more to it than that, and socialization of women, and yes, I, yes, I agree, look, those things are factors.

However, at the end of the day, when it’s you in your bathroom, and you and your thoughts alone in your own head, it comes down to you really developing a relationship with you at every stage of the way. And we are so in love with our post pubescent bodies, right? Those 20 something year old bodies that are still supple and live.

And maybe, maybe we didn’t live in a thin body. Maybe we still lived in a fat body, but our fat distribution was different. We didn’t have swelly bellies from perimenopause or post menopause, like. Literally, our bodies, our post pubescent bodies, are very different than our 50 year old bodies, or older, or 40 year old bodies.

So, literally, this is about you having to reconcile at every stage of the game, like This is my body today. This is my face today. I don’t know what my hair is going to do. I don’t know what my belly is going to do. I don’t know what my ass is going to do. I don’t know what my titties are going to do tomorrow.

Like this is being a human being. And I think really spending time to like wrap your arms around that from just like a mindset perspective will be very helpful. I think what you spoke to is kind of interesting is let’s add to the fact that most of us don’t pay very nearly enough attention to ourselves.

We’re in our screens. Most of the time we have filters. We actually don’t know what our actual faces look like. Even on Zoom. I’ve had to turn the filter off multiple times on Zoom because it keeps turning that fucker back on. And it like, I realized like even when I have it off, it still smooths me out. It still makes my teeth whiter than they really are. It still takes that little what the fuck what I call the the 11s, right, the 11s between my eyebrows, it still smooths it out. I don’t have a filter on right now. And my face is still smoothed out.

Jill: You are glowing right now.

Judith: I look very fresh, right? It’s seven o’clock in the morning, California right now, y’all. Right, we’re surrounded by, like, we literally don’t know what our faces look like, so let’s add that level of complication, and then there’s this idea that we’re supposed to look a particular way at a certain age.

Yeah. And that’s where the social programming comes in, right?

Jill: Yes, but, and, and we’re supposed to age. Appropriately, we’re supposed to age gracefully. We’re supposed to age …if I hear somebody one more time say like, Oh, she’s aging well. I’m like, what does that even mean? Can we just stop?

Like, okay, I love me some Martha Stewart, but her on the cover of that magazine and people are like, Oh, she’s aging so well. I’m like, Hello, filters. Hello, cleverly placed clothing and positioning, and it was all about image, like she’s aging well because she looks, you know, like fuckable at age 80 or however, right?

I’m just going to come right down and say it like she fits that sort of heteronormative look of, You know, attractive woman with curves and she’s thin and she’s all styled and it’s like, well, is that the only way to age well is to, you know,

Judith: And I would love us like, literally, I think it’d be such a fun way to change this narrative.

And right, I’m talking to Gen Xers. So y’all are rebellious. Y’all, y’all can get in on this. Let’s go. Like, what if I want to age ratchet. I want to live full out, wind in the face, sun on my skin, full out ratchet. Like, what if that was the goal? I mean, how differently would we live our lives if it wasn’t for this idea that we have to self-preserve our collagen and every little like smooth patch on our face?

And some of you literally are probably in dismay right now. You hear me saying this, you’re like, what? I don’t want to; I don’t want to age ratchet. But seriously, just play with the idea of like, how differently would you show up to your life? The one life you have to live. And when we’re all hit our nineties, we’re all going to fucking look the same.

Whether you like it or not, maybe we’re all going to kind of look the same. Guess what? Like what if you live, like the goal was to age ratchet, not gracefully, not well, but ratchet, like full out, all of it.

Jill: Just use up every last drop of life out of your body. Instead of trying to preserve it. So, because you’re right at age 90, we are all, I’ve been obsessed with like looking at women, like the lines around their mouths, like women in their sixties and seventies and eighties.

And like, kind of like, okay, can I see that developing on my face now? And like, what is it? I’m actually like putting myself in the space of like, okay, what is it going to be like when my face evolves again and has a new look with a lot more lines on it and so forth. And how do I want to think and feel about that?

I want to just be like, yeah, let’s go.

I don’t want to be stressing out about how do I put makeup on to make myself look younger and so forth. Like when I am 80, when I am 90, . Ratchet is the perfect word for it. Like I’m all in with that age ratchet.

Judith: I think what, and don’t, don’t mishear me for some of you who might be balking at this because there is a flip side to this we’d be remiss not to talk about. You might want to wear anti-aging creams and serums and get filler and you get to always do you boo boo a hundred percent. You enjoy that. Go do it. Have fun. But just go in eyes wide open. Start to ask yourself these questions, start to develop a relationship with yourself with, Hey, I’m choosing to do this thing to my skin.

I’m choosing to do this thing to my face or my body or my tummy or my ass or my titties or whatever it is you want to do to your body because it’s your body, right? If we’re really going to truly believe that women get to do whatever they want with their bodies, we really need to believe that for all intents and purposes. We don’t get to pick and choose when women are allowed to do things to their bodies. You get to do whatever the fuck you want to your body.

Having said that, our role as coaches oftentimes is to just sit with you in the questioning of whatever decision it is that you want to make about your body or your life, and ask you like, do you like your reasons? Do you know where those reasons came from?

And are you still cool with proceeding forward? And if you are cool, you like it. I love it. Let’s roll. But our goal is to just like foster these conversations so you can start to think about, Hey, I’ve developed this relationship with myself enough not to kid a kidder. These are actually my motivations.

I have a client right now. She’s so funny. One thing we’re working on is like. Being really honest with herself about what it is she wants and she’ll show up to coaching calls and she’s like, and I was, I was actually honest. I told myself the truth and like, she got like, she started to put that caveat and then I was really honest with myself and I told myself the truth.

And it’s just so funny because this is like a whole new world to her. Like she doesn’t even have to pretend in her own head. She gets to tell herself the truth about why she’s choosing to do something or not. So, hey, if you want to pursue all those things, I enjoy a lot of it. I love makeup. I’m very femme presenting.

I love all those things, but I don’t kid myself about maybe my motivations aren’t always the greatest. Maybe my desire for that I don’t always love, but I still like to play with it. Like we get to live in a nuance of it.

But just go in with a lot of like understanding of like why you’re doing what you’re doing, whatever it is you choose to do.

Jill: Yeah. Well, and I love what you said, like knowing where your motivations came from, like, are your motivations coming from, my mom told me that it’s not appropriate to wear this kind of clothing or it’s not appropriate to let your hair go gray or whatever. Like those are messages I sure as hell got from my mom.

And it took a lot of time to unpack, like, why am I like doing all of these things that I’m doing? And so I think like knowing where your motivations came from is critical. And like, did it come from society? Is it coming from a bunch of Ads on Facebook, or is it coming from Hey, you know, I like the way my skin feels when I use this cream on it, or I like how my body feels when I wear yoga pants or whatever, right?

Judith: Spanx or a waist trainer, whatever you want, baby.

Our reasons for doing things, right, because part of being a human being, and this is super philosophical, is like our motivations are always going to be a mixed bag. We never have pure motivation for anything, okay?

That’s just such a false idea. We have a mix, like some of it would be like what we consider very ego and very vain, but there’s still nothing wrong with it if that’s what you’re choosing. Yeah. And some of it might be altruistic, and that doesn’t make you a better human or more morally awesome, like. It’s going to be a mixed bag for all of us.

Like maybe some of us just still want to be hot, whatever that means to you. Like that’s okay too. But understanding all the myriad of it coming at you is kind of interesting. I do think let’s kind of talk about some of the fun rules that are given to women as this is all age appropriate, the age appropriate rules.

Let’s talk about them.

Jill: For sure, one of them is like, I’m just like thinking for myself is like the older you get, you should have short hair. I think of the Golden Girls and like not a one of them had long hair. They all had that like short, feathered haircut. And so I think that there’s this expectation that as women age, you shouldn’t have long hair anymore. You should have shorter hair and you should also be doing your best to color it so that it doesn’t look like you’re aging.

So that’s one I could think of. What like, but like style wise, what are the things that you hear from your clients?

Judith: I think one of the saddest, I remember when I was a personal stylist for, I’ll just say a big retailer, big designer, and I was in the dressing room with this woman and her husband told her, she had to cover up her arms, her arms had aged and, you know, after a certain age, women aren’t allowed to wear sleeveless things. And I mean, I, there’s a whole funny part on Marvelous Mrs. Maisel where they talk about her arms being aged out and now she has to wear bolero next summer. Like this idea that you’re not allowed to show your arms after a certain age because you know, they’re, they’re showing their age, whatever the fuck that means.

Jill: Wait. And can I just point out that like the older, you know, like, so a woman hits perimenopause and then becomes postmenopausal and she’s fucking hot all the time because of the hot flashes. And now you’re like, Oh, and by the way, you’ve got to cover up your arms. That is some bullshit, right?

Judith: Right. Like, you’re like, you have to cover up your legs or to cover up your arms. And I’m like, But they’re hot and they’re sweaty. They’re like, all the juices are being encapsulated. Why would we do that to each other? Why would we do that to ourselves? So it’s, I think it’s such a funny, I, it’s a very funny, very strange, very sad idea that I hear.

I hear some version of that very often. The idea that you’re not supposed to dress young, which I find fascinating. It’s like. What does, what does that mean exactly? Like, define it. Like, and if we can all objectively agree on what that means, maybe, maybe I’ll buy into it. But none of us can agree what dressing young looks like.

Yeah. And it’s just a way to be mean to people about their style choices. And especially older women, like it’s not a comment that gets made for everyone. It’s a certain subset of women that are like, Oh, she knows she never dresses her age. You should dress your age.

Jill: And it’s always women too. Like how many, have you ever heard anybody say about a dude? You should dress your age.

Judith: Oh no, he’s quirky. He’s sartorial. He has style. He has pizazz. It’s such a, it’s such a fascinating thing that just doesn’t happen. It just does not happen for men. If a guy gets stuck in an era. Which they haven’t. I mean, I’ve had male clients who are stuck in an era, whatever their heyday was, they’re stuck there. It’s just who they are. It’s part of how they’ve always dressed. Not a big deal.

Jill: And what if, as like, Gen X women, we decided to actually embrace that concept and be like, Hey, I want to dress for the era when I felt like, I don’t know, for whatever reason, like, this is my favorite era of my life. And I’m just going to keep dressing like that.

Like I’m going to be 90 years old. I’m still going to be wearing, you know, neon Benetton sweaters.

Right. Like what if we all just did that and like, you know, if the, if your, the favorite era of your life was your forties, you’re like, all right, I’m just going to dress that way I think we should do that. I think we should.

Judith: Oh my God, advanced style of a certain age. Like if you follow those blogs or those Instagram accounts, you see these women. And they’re 70s or 80s or 90s who developed a clear sense of who they are, what they like very early on. And it has not changed for them.

Jill: Exactly.

Judith: And we wouldn’t like, we have no desire to have them change their glorious, their icons. Why would we change that? Right. We could give ourselves the same grace.

And it’s so interesting that you said that one of my favorite questions to ask clients when I’m developing their style statement with them is like, what is your most favorite clothing item of all time? And how did you feel about yourself when you’re wearing it? And the look on like, this is how the magic of this is a look on my client’s faces when they take themselves back to a moment in time where the favorite garment decades before, like for the most part, it’s, it’s in the past, typically like they are transported.

Their body language changes, the way they talk about themselves changes the way they see themselves in their minds eye changes. And I’m like, Okay, love, but you could have that now. Like whatever that is, it’s crossing your mind right now that you imagine the way you felt like that woman still exists.

She can still have that moment where she’s transported, where she feels confident, sexy, curvy, fill in the blank, whatever your adjectives are. Like, why rob yourself the pleasure of that? Because it’s so available to you, whatever the frack your age is, whatever your body’s doing.

Jill: Right. Even if like that memory is associated with a much thinner body, like you can still feel those emotions in the body that you have right now, in the way you dress yourself right now, for sure.

Judith: And some of you are balking, like what? I never told this lady. I was like, no, no. I was at a conference. I told this lady that she goes, I can’t even imagine that. She was really upset. I was just like, just, just try. Just try to imagine it because it’s so, it’s a worthwhile exercise in your own brain and your own heart and mind to give yourself the joy of that, that moment, whatever it was, because it’s still available to you.

It really is.

Jill: I’m like trying to think of my own and there was, this was probably 10 years ago. I was still like towards the end of my corporate career and I had this. Like stretchy pencil skirt that I got from Lane Bryant and it was like a black and gray sort of like a leopard print and it was very very form fitting and I did wear Spanx underneath it.

Because I wanted like a certain You know, body. What’s the words?

Judith: I want to look snatched.

Jill: Yeah, exactly. I wanted to look snatched. Thank you. And then I had this like low cut V neck, bright red sweater that I wore with it. And it was like sort of a, almost like a tunic sweater. And then I had like this, I was, I got it at Liberty in London and it was like a really long silk scarf with this Peacock pattern on it.

And it was like teals. And I don’t know, it was like, you wouldn’t normally put these together, but I would wear it around my waist as like a little belt. And then I had like, this is back when I used to wear like high heels all the time. And I will tell you, I still think about that outfit because I, and it wasn’t like, I wasn’t thin at all, but I felt powerful. I felt confident. I felt like I, like, I would just like stalk around the halls of my office and just feel like, yeah, I am, I am in control. I’ve got this. And it was such a powerful feeling that I’m like, Oh, how do I recapture that? In my current wardrobe.

Judith: Yeah. What did you believe to be true about yourself at that time?

Jill: I mean, what did I believe? I believed, I mean, I think I believed I was smart and capable and I believed I was going places and this was like, yeah, I was still, I had not like conceived of the career I have right now., but I was like. And I think like I got a promotion around that time too, that I feel like I talked myself into that promotion because I just felt so, I felt confident.

What was I thinking? I think I was thinking like, I’m, I’m really capable and I’m really smart. I’m really good at my job. And also I’m kind of a hottie.

I think that was what I was thinking. All of those things sort of like mixed together.

Judith: Yeah. So like you literally showed up that way.

Jill: Yeah, I did for sure.

Judith: And it’s so funny because I think sometimes we think it’s like, so if anybody hearing this, you’re like, oh, was it the outfit that helped that created those thoughts? Outfits can’t create thoughts. They’re just piles of fabric. Right? So she was thinking and believing these things about herself. She was feeling a particular way.

She was feeling herself. Let’s just be honest. And then she went to pick out her clothes. So many of us are trying to do it the opposite way. We’re hoping if we find the right outfit, then that will help us, that’ll create the thoughts for us. And then we’ll feel better. And it’s like, okay, hold up. Let’s actually, let’s back it up.

What would you like to believe is true about yourself? You got to work on that. Right. Developing that relationship with yourself, intentionally choosing thoughts like I’m capable I’m a hottie. I have like. Future ahead of me, which some of you, you have to remind yourselves, even at 50, you have a long ass future ahead of you.

It is not over and like fostering that sense of confidence, that sense of sexiness, that sense of like competence. Right. And then let’s go try on some clothes. Cause it’s just gonna be such a different experience in your closet, in your wardrobe, when you’re shopping, if you’re coming from that place, cause nobody can tell you nothing.

If you’re shopping and dressing yourself from that place.

Jill: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I, and like, wait, this is just, and I realized that this is not a coach. I did not expect this to be like, intend this to be a coaching session for me, but I’ve just realized that when I, when my first husband and I divorced and I was, I was 49 and I’m like, how am I going to figure out how to date again?

This is bananas. Like what? Tinder? Like, no thank you. And but I had this. I went on a date and there was, I was wearing an outfit that I, like, when I looked at myself in the mirror, I was like, I really like this outfit. Like it just kind of captured my personality. Right. I was wearing high heel motorcycle boots from Tory Burch. Oh my God. These are the best. I will never give these boots away. They’re amazing. They’re like four inch heels. They’re amazing. And then I was wearing like, just kind of like dark wash boot cut jeans. And again, another like low, I like the low cut stuff. Cause I have the boobies.

There was just something about that outfit that I, like, looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, had that, oh, you’re kind of a hottie, and it, like, kicked off this whole chain of confidence again, that, like, it was, it was the same confidence that I had earlier when I was, when I was working, and I think the, the thought that I had was, like, I am like, fuck.

Yeah. I’m like 49 years old and I’m dating again. And this is so badass. And I’m a fun person to be around. I have a magnetic personality. I had all these like thoughts about myself and I attached them to that outfit. Like I had the thoughts first cause I went on the date when I was wearing the outfit and I was like, Oh yeah. Like that went really well and like actually maybe I’m good at this dating thing and so I had all these thoughts and then I kind of attached them to that outfit and so I’d wear that outfit on every date.

Judith: That’s wonderful.

Jill: But it helped me because I knew the thoughts, right? I knew those thoughts were really powerful for me. And I will tell you, I, honest to God, I think that, like, the way I was thinking is how I ended up meeting the husband that I have now, because that, that’s how I showed up thinking like, I am a catch. I am like all of these, and like 49 years old, like, fuck yeah, bring it on. Like dating at this age, like nobody does this.

Right. And yeah. And, and, but like, I like, as we’re talking, I used to think it was the outfit that gave me the power, but now I’m like, Oh no, no, I wore that outfit. And I had the thoughts while I was wearing the outfit and I thought it was the clothes. And so I wear the clothes over and over again, you know, that was my first date outfit and they all went really well.

So I, yeah, I just took us totally off track,

Judith: I’m smiling super huge on her right now, but like you’re transported, right? Like your body language, even you can, like, even listen, like listeners, you can hear the change in her voice just talking about this.

Yeah. It’s so fun. It’s so fun. Yeah.

And that’s totally available to you right now.

Jill: So how do people get started with this? Like, how do you start creating those thoughts that you want to have that lead you to dress in a way that like matches how you feel about How you want to feel about yourself. Does that make sense?

Judith: Yeah. I think a good, I think I like to approach it. You can approach it this one way and then I’ll tell you another way in case that doesn’t resonate.

So I think the first thing to do is really just to think back kind of like we did right now. Just, just like we did on this call. Like when’s the last time you felt stylish? When was the last time you felt confident? What were you thinking? What did you believe to be true about yourself? If you need to, like, rewind this and go write those down, by all means, you go do that right now.

Hit replay on this, right? I think that’s such a great starting point because it’s such a juicy fodder. Like, if you could transport yourself there. And think about when did you feel stylish last? When did you feel confident last? Now, why those two different questions? They’re not the same thing. Some of my clients have never felt stylish and like, that’s okay.

Maybe that’s not our way in. Maybe our way in is to ask when’s the last time you felt confident. And play with it that way. So I gave those two for a reason, they’re two separate questions. And then to really just allow yourself, like, to remember, how did you feel about yourself? What do you believe to be true?

Write all of it down. Some of it may not be believable today. That’s okay. Right? We’re might be asking a lot of you right now if you’re out of practice thinking good things about yourself. But it is a roadmap. It is a way forward. It’s something that at least at one point you believe to be true, or you had the passing thought, the inkling about yourself, which means that neural pathway still exists in your brain.

There’s memory engrams that remember this, right? We can use that to benefit you now. You just got to practice. You gotta put it everywhere. You gotta put it as your screensaver on your phone anyway. Put it as a background on your computer. Post it notes, post it notes, post it notes. Whatever it takes. And it’s okay if you don’t believe it yet.

You can start to practice like, I’m working on believing. Fill in the blank. I used to believe, and I may believe again, fill in the blank and start to practice. And it’s going to help you develop that relationship with yourself. Like you’re going to be talking to yourself a lot. You’re going to hear your own responses.

Like then you get to start to talk to yourself a little more kind of like, this is a jumping off point. But I think the great starting questions is when was the last time I felt stylish? When was the last time I felt confident? What did I believe to be true about myself? What was I thinking?

Jill: I love that. And those are such simple questions to ask. So let me, let me ask you this. If somebody is going to sit down there, they’re writing those questions out and they can’t, they’re like feeling blocked or like they can’t think of the answer. What would you suggest? Cause I can imagine there are, you know, what if somebody is like, I’ve never felt confident before.

I’ve never felt stylish before. Like, what would you do with that?

Judith: I think we have to go into best friend mode.

Jill: Okay.

Judith: Sometimes you have to bypass your thoughts about yourself. And we’ve got to think about like somebody you love in the world. Most women that, that age, you typically have a best friend or somebody, they’re very like a female friend.

They’re very close to you or just a friend that they’re very close to, that they admire, that they love, that they think the world of, that they think is stylish, that they think are capable and confident. And you want to shake the shit out of them because you wish they believed it too. All the things you believe to be true about them, like if you can spot it in other people, it’s because there’s a twinge of it that exists in you.

So maybe you can’t access it for yourself, but what do you believe to be true about the person you love most? You can believe that about them, then that might be a great starting point for you.

Jill: Oh, I love that so much because we all have such kind thoughts about our friends, right? We look at them and we think, Oh my gosh, she’s so amazing.

She’s so good at this. She’s so smart. She’s so funny. She’s so stylish. She’s like all the things. And, and you know, sometimes you have to remind your friends of those things because they can’t see it themselves. So I love this.

Judith: Yeah, or you can even ask your friend. Like, let’s say the third option is like, you really can’t access even that, then ask the people you love most, like, What do they say about you?

When they brag about you to other people, what do they say? We could start to borrow some belief sometimes as a starting point. That’s why I think the benefit of getting a coach, right, so this is something again to Jill’s membership, you can get coaching from her on this too, is like sometimes you have to borrow thoughts.

from other folks. We have to borrow some belief from other people until we can start to build that for ourselves. I would love it if we were all so internally motivated and held these beautiful thoughts about ourselves, but that’s not human reality. So, that’s why I think it is sometimes helpful to get help, to get in community, because sometimes we need a starting out point.

And I think the best example of this is when I write trial briefs or something as an attorney, right? I might write a memo or something really important. Sometimes I have to go to another attorney and be like, can you just give me some words? I just need some words. I just need a starting point. I just need some words.

And they’re like, okay, I would start it like this. And they just say a sentence. I’m like, yep. Got it. Good. Go. I’m going to go. I’m going to go write this now. Like, I just need some words. Like sometimes we just need some words. That’s part of being in community and belonging and being a human. Like, there’s nothing wrong with it.

If you really can’t access this and this feels really hard for you. Go borrow another brain, ask for some words, ask for some help.

Jill: Oh, I love that. I love that so much. So, I want to talk like a little more specifically about style in general. Because I think we, we’d started talking about what are some rules, right?

Like don’t dress too young for your age. Covering up, like you should cover up your arms and your legs.

Judith: Cut your hair and dye it.

Jill: Yeah, dyeing your hair. What are some other, and by the way, like, Those are all bullshit rules, right? Like, if you want to dye your hair, dye your hair, but you don’t have to. If you want to cover up your arms, cover them up, but you don’t have to.

Rules are just society’s way of keeping women in their place. That’s like fashion rules, like making sure that, you know, at a certain age that you just know your place. Right. And we are all about like breaking through that. But what are some things that women may have been taught that they think that they don’t realize is like kind of a bullshit rule.

That they might be adhering to and realizing, like, because I think of like, you know, oh, you can’t wear white after Labor Day or whatever. Like, that seems like some bullshit. Like,

Judith: Oh, there’s like a whole list. So we, yeah, let’s go there. So, you, well, that’s one, like you can’t wear white after Labor Day, which is how that the history of that rule is very interesting.

But it won’t belabor that it’s elitist and don’t follow that. It’s nonsense. The idea that you can’t wear certain colors together,, I think is very fascinating. Like you can’t wear black and blue or brown and black. That is not true. You totally can. I heard. Some really fun things about body shapes that I’ve always find very fascinating.

And I think it’s a whole generation of women who were raised on the idea that you’re a category of elementary school shape or fruit. So there’s like a whole list of things you’re not allowed to wear if you’re a quote unquote apple or square or inverted triangle or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think it was just our way of trying to make sense of the world, trying to make it easier to shop.

And I think we did women a huge disservice because now we have multiple generations of women who think there’s something wrong with their bodies. They’re not a quote unquote hourglass. And are told there’s like a ton. Well, you know, I can’t wear that because I carry my weight in my middle because I’m an apple.

I’m like. You’re not an apple. You’re a human woman. What would you like to wear today? Like, what are you most comfortable in? Like that doesn’t make any sense, especially for a lot of my clients. As I found over the years, this is another thing.

Oh my gosh. I’m going to go. Let’s go.

So many women have sensory issues.

I think a lot of women are neuro spicy and they mask in their whole lives and they were punished for squirming in their clothing or complaining about how their clothing felt on them. If they were itchy, they had to sit through it. If they were uncomfortable because they don’t like buttons or zippers or certain textures, they were punished and told they had to sit still and look pretty and not ruin their outfits and not move.

And I have, I have, oh my gosh, this is probably the most heartbreaking is the idea that beauty is pain and we’re supposed to sit through discomfort in order to look stylish or fashionable or insert word. One of the things I worked on with a lot of clients, even just last year, I did a podcast episode, I think last year about like sensory sensitivity in your clothing.

And it was like a floodgate open. It was like, wait, hold on. I don’t have to be itchy. And I’m like, no, you don’t have to be itchy. How long have you been itchy? Why are you itchy? What’s happening? Like. Well, I was told that, you know, cashmere and wool are, you know, classic and timeless and elegant, but you know, I think I have an allergy.

I’m like, Oh God. Okay. So no, you don’t have to wear wool or cashmere if you itch. How long has you like skin been on fire? Oh, like, you know, since I was a little kid and they have like this distinct memory of being really itchy and a wool jumper and not being allowed to complain because they had to sit still like a good girl or like being in crinoline or tights.

You know how many clients I have who like around their tummy, they don’t like anything around their tummy. That sensation is really awful to them. But we live in a world where high waisted jeans, you have to wear them. You have to wear Spanx. You have to blah, blah, blah, all these things. And it’s like, so how long have you been uncomfortable?

Oh, since I was a little kid, I can remember these pants. My mom put me in like, and it’s just this whole generation of women who was told, like, these are your work, like, these are your special clothes, and you’re not allowed to ruin them, and you have to sit still, and you have to sit quiet, and you have to endure it.

No wonder why y’all rebelled in your teenage years, and wore some wild stuff but then for some reason as adults, you bring yourself back to those moments. You’re itchy and uncomfortable and your feet hurt and your tummy hurts and you’re in bras that don’t fit and you’re so uncomfortable because you were told that’s what elegance and style is.

It’s, it’s wearing high heels, it’s blah, blah, blah. So I mean, I hear some flavor of all the rules at certain points with different clients and I find it really heartbreaking. So I think one of the first things we could determine is if you’re living or operating under the rules, how uncomfortable are you in your clothing?

And being like, again, this comes to self honesty and being really honest with yourself about that.

Jill: Yeah. I love this so much because a couple of years ago, I gave up underwire bras. Cause I felt, I thought that like, I always had to wear underwire because I’ve got big boobs and I need them to be up and, and out and about and all of that.

And, oh my God. And you helped me realize like how uncomfortable I was. And so I just started wearing like bras without. Underwire. And yes, they’re not quite as high up as they used to be, but also I am so much more comfortable. And hey, guess what? When I feel more comfortable, like physically, I’m so much more confident.

Right. It’s, it’s amazing. Right. Like, I feel like I can just be myself instead of like constantly having to adjust and, you know, try not to get stabbed in the ribs.

Judith: Right. Or like, you feel like you can’t breathe or like you’re just like low key all day. Like you can’t wait to take the damn thing off.

And I mean, I love like bullet bras. I like Right. I mean, Chi Chi’s up. I’m all for it, but I’m physically comfortable that way. Not everyone is, but if you were raised in a household where, Hey, bras have underwires and your breasts should look and sit a certain way at a certain height. As a grownup, I just want you to rethink all of those ideas or those rules, especially if you’re physically uncomfortable.

Jill: Yes, exactly. That’s it, right? If you’re physically uncomfortable, it’s probably not the style for you, at least on a regular basis.

Judith: Yeah. And like. We get to look at this all over again, right? Like, maybe you don’t need to wear three pairs of Spanx. Yes, I had some clients who were running around doing that.

The Kardashians do it. Let’s not follow them. Let’s not do what they do. Why don’t we just buy pants that fit you? Yeah. It could be that simple, right? Some people don’t like jeans. I actually had a conversation with a client yesterday and I was like, you don’t have to wear them. Not required. It’s like, I was told for so long part of a capsule wardrobe was a good pair of jeans.

And she’s like, Judith, you’re the first person who was like, do you even like jeans? Do you not, you don’t want to wear that? You don’t have to wear them. Cool. Easy. What would you like to wear instead? Like, wait, what? Like, isn’t there a list of things I’m supposed to have in my capsule wardrobe? And I’m like, well, why don’t we just make it up as we go along?

What would you like in your capsule wardrobe? Like so many of us were given these must have lists, right? We grew up with magazines where there’s these must have lists and things that we’re supposed to buy to look professional or polished or insert word and Like, how would you like to be today? What was what’s most comfortable?

Yeah. You like to do? How would you like to look? What would you like to play with?

Jill: I love that because fashion is fashion is not about, I mean, maybe it is, but to me, fashion is not about conforming. It is about expressing. And part of the expression in my mind is like, do I feel like myself? Do I feel good in this clothing?

And. Yeah, you can’t do that if you’re trying to fit somebody else’s list of things , right? Like, wearing jeans, because somebody told you it’s a good part of a capsule wardrobe, even though you hate jeans is like that, Oh, I have to conform versus, okay, well, actually I feel a lot better in leggings or palazzo pants or whatever.

And to me, that seems more just expressing who you are and wanting to just feel good in your body. I was just talking to another coach that we’re doing, that’s going to be part of this interview series. And she works with people who have chronic pain and she’s like, one of the things that we do is not necessarily to ignore the pain or make the pain go away, but just to be like, how can I inhabit my body right now?

And enjoy the experience, I guess. And to me, that kind of feels like part of what fashion and style is all about is like enjoying the experience of being in your body.

Judith: I think it could be. I wish we would let it be. That would be amazing.

Jill: That’s my ideal of it.

Judith: Yeah, I think that’s the ideal, right?

I love to think of style as like the outward expression of your thoughts and feelings about yourself. And we get to choose how we think and feel about ourselves. So that means we get to choose what we put on our bodies, how we adorn ourselves. We could let this be fun again. It does not have to be so fraught with all these rules and regulations and parameters and must have lists and do’s and don’t lists and blah, blah, blah.

We could just let this be fun again.

Jill: Yeah. And just because something isn’t quote unquote in style anymore, if it’s still something you love, you can still wear it.

Right.

Judith: A hundred percent. I have not dressed in style and decades

Jill: Your style is so lovely and such a beautiful expression of who you are.

But yeah, it’s like most of your clothing would be, what, what era would you say you 40s and 50s,

Judith: 40s and 50s. Yeah. I don’t run around, expecting, like, the store to have the exact thing, I mean, that would be, that would blow my mind, it’d be wild, but, and living in a plus size body, it’s not the easiest to dress 40s and 50s, so, I have found it to be really interesting, this pressure to, like, wear what’s in style, And again, I think where it’s perpetuated by like magazines, influencers, all the things that are like, we’re inundated with these constant images of how we’re supposed to look, how we’re supposed to be.

And I think back to that question of like, when did you feel stylish last? When did you feel your most confident? Like not only what we were feeling about you, but what did you believe about yourself and all those things, but I also think, what were you wearing? Like that gives us such a glimpse of what you actually like.

Jill: Yeah, I love that. So what I’m hearing is Dressing your age, especially when you don’t feel your age, like trying to dress your age is sort of a lost cause because it’s never going to feel quite right. If you’re like, I need to dress the way a 56 year old woman would dress. I don’t even know what that is anymore.

I think back in the day, it was these are how the Golden Girls dress and that’s the age that they’re at. But now I feel like at least Gen X has sort of broken a lot of those barriers and trying to dress your age, like, what even is that anymore? And so this concept of, like, dressing in a way that corresponds with how you’re feeling and choosing ahead of time what you want to think and feel so that you dress according to that seems like a much more. I don’t know much more. It requires some soul searching. It requires some like work on yourself. It’s not as easy as a checklist, but it’s so much more fulfilling in the end.

Judith: I think so. And here’s a funny thing. Like you’re never going to be the same age. Ever again, minute to minute, second to second. Like the age I was a second ago, I can’t get her back. The age I was ten seconds ago, that’s gone. It’s gone. I’m older now. Ten seconds older. Twenty seconds older. Thirty, like, so constantly trying to vie to become something I no longer am. That’s a lost cause. It’s so futile. It’s, it’s demoralizing. But if I’m here for the ride and I’m like, well, let’s see what I will evolve into in the next 10 seconds.

Let’s see what I’ll become next week. How do I want to feel tomorrow? How do I want to feel in the tomorrow evening? How do I feel when I wake up tomorrow morning? Like those are much more interesting questions that I have total control over.

Jill: Yeah. Oh, I love that so much. Thank you so much for being here and for talking through this today, because. I mean, these, these are actually things that I’ve kind of like been tossing around in my own brain. And I know, you know, tons of my friends in the same age group are, are struggling with it as well. And feeling like, feeling like the older I get, the frumpier I get. And I don’t want to feel frumpy, but I don’t know how to not feel frumpy.

I don’t know how to dress. I don’t know how to dress this body and so forth. And so I think you’ve given us like a lot to really think about and take action on and by the way, is frumpy a feeling or what, like, what is frumpy thought?

Judith: I don’t think it’s an actual emotion. I think it’s one of those like little insidious things.

Like I feel fat. I feel frumpy I feel not good enough and those are just like mean thoughts that we disguise as emotions because then we don’t have to address it If it’s a feeling that I have to discover the shitty things I’m saying to myself Yeah It’s an emotion. My feelings are valid. Yes. Your feelings are valid, but actually that’s not the emotion.

That’s the thought. What is, what, what emotion is that thought creating? Because that’s actually going to give us a lot more information about probably what you’re doing as a result of those, that whole line of thinking.

Jill: Yeah. I love that. Okay. Well, let’s talk about where people can get in touch with you, where they can find you, where they can learn from you.

Judith: Well, but I think if you’re listening to this, chances are you like podcasts. So here’s my podcast announcer voice. Style Masterclass Podcast would be the best way to come into my world. Binge watch the episodes. Or listen to them. Depending on how you roll, they’re about 10 minutes in length. They’re super actionable.

And that’s the best way to just like, continue to build on this work. And then when you’re ready and you’d like to dive in and work with me on the style stuff, you could go to judithgaton. com.

Jill: Love it. And we will have all those links in the show notes as well.

Thank you so much for joining. It is always a pleasure when we get together.

Judith: Agree. We get together once a week, so I’m going to see her in two days

Jill: Again thank you. And everybody, please listen to Judith’s podcast Style Masterclass Podcast. And then where can they find you on Instagram? Cause you do good stuff on Instagram too.

Judith: Judith Gaton. J U D I T H G A T O N. I love it. All right. Well, thank you, my friend. Thank you.