Ep #254: Why Running While Fat Won’t Ruin Your Knees with Alex Ellis

Welcome to The Not Your Average Runner Podcast. If you’re a woman who has never felt athletic but you still dream about becoming a runner, you are in the right place. I’m Jill Angie, a certified running and life coach, and I teach women how to start running, feel confident, and change their lives. And now I want to help you.

Hey runners, well I am here this week with the one and only Alex Ellis, who is a mobility coach and a wellness expert who helps active people, active plus size people I might add, move smarter, maintain their bodies, and maximize strength with customized wellness plans so they can enjoy life without pain.

And we are here today to talk about knee pain. And if you are a runner, you have had knee pain, you have had it. So we’re going to talk all things knee pain and knee health today with Alex. So thank you so much for joining me again, this is actually the second time we’ve talked on the show. But thank you for being here.

Alex: Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m excited to talk about this because I know yes, pain and knee pain and just pain in general is so common for people. And I think for runners too it’s so easy for people to say well you should stop running, which I know for many is not an option when it’s your mental health outlet. So I’m ready to shine some light on how we can exist and live pain free.

Jill: I love this. Okay, so first of all let’s bust the whole myth that running while fat is going to ruin your knees. Because if I had a nickel for every time that I have heard that I would have a fucking Tesla by now. The fancy one too, not the cheap one.

Alex: Yes, well, so I actually was interested about this too so I was like, let me dive into research and see what the scientists have uncovered. And it all comes back to like correlation without causation. So there’s a lot of well, you know, people lost weight and then their back pain got better. It came back, but they lost weight and it got better. So that’s the connection, right?

So there’s a lot of like shitty science that is trying to force a connection, but when it comes down to it, losing weight is not a requirement to getting out of pain. If it were, people in smaller bodies would never have pain and that’s just like straight up not true. People of all body shapes and sizes experience pain, whether it’s knee pain or back pain or whatever.

And also this idea too of like, oh, well, it’s the gravity and the body weight. It’s like, yes, but have you see the Santa Claus, that movie?

Jill: Yes I have.

Alex: Okay, you know how he woke up one morning and he was the Santa Claus. Perhaps in that situation where there’s an overnight dramatic change in body shape, or size, or composition, perhaps then we could say oh, well, it’s too much weight for the joints or whatever. But for most of us, our body changes all the time and it’s a gradual change.

And guess what? All of your tissues adapt to forces and loads and stressors that are put upon them every single day. So there’s no science there but we’re so entrenched in this belief, and I know that the medical model is so just like, no, this is the way. But if it were true, then it would be true that people in smaller bodies don’t have pain and that’s just not true.

Jill: Yeah. Right, because I think when you believe, oh, the only way for me to get out of pain, especially with my knees, is for me to lose weight. It blocks you from taking the millions of other actions that you could take to actually have healthy knees that have nothing from your weight.

So for the purposes of this podcast I just want everybody to suspend their personal bias that being overweight causes knee problems, especially if you’re a runner. And just kind of like open your thoughts to hey, maybe there’s another way, because there is.

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, running is, you know, the same motion. It’s repetitive, right? It’s the same motion again and again and again and again. And really, the underlying cause of pain is most likely mechanics, right? How you’re running, how your body is moving. It might have something to do with like moving into a new space and now I’m going up 7,000 flights of stairs a day. Or maybe I stubbed my toe and now I’m walking differently to compensate for that and then that sets off a chain of events.

For me, like my whole running form changed because I had this growth taken off my foot and they took like half my heel, and they were like just put a Band-Aid on it. And I was like cool, yeah. I didn’t wear shoes or socks for like six weeks. And then it just wasn’t comfortable to heel strike anymore with running and so my running changed.

So there’s many different reasons why our mechanics can change that can impact how your body feels. But it’s so, I would say it’s so easy. It’s like it’s not easy, it takes consistency to do it. But it’s absolutely possible and surgery and losing weight aren’t the only options. And oftentimes they’re not the best options.

Jill: Yeah, they’re definitely the hard options, right? Like if I can fix my pain and discomfort by doing some of the stuff that we’re going to talk about today, which I can do in the comfort of my own home while I’m watching Bridgerton on Netflix, then like yes, I’m all in.

Alex: Yeah.

Jill: Okay, so can you tell us a little bit about the different types of pain that people might experience in their knee? Because when my folks come to me, they’re like, oh, my knee hurts. I’m like, okay, we’re going to have to have a whole conversation because that’s such a broad statement. There’s so many different ways a knee can hurt, there’s so many different reasons it might hurt. And I know it’s a huge, it’s a huge question to ask, but can you kind of give us some broad strokes?

Alex: Yeah, I like to think of the knee as like the middle child between the hip and the ankle. Your knee is a hinge joint, meaning that it really only moves in one direction, right? You can bend and straighten your knee like a door hinge. Your hip has a ton of range of motion, it’s a ball and socket joint. And the ankle is not a ball and socket joint, but also has a ton of range of motion and your foot does underneath it.

So that also means that if there’s something going on in the hips, or the lower back, or the feet, or the ankles, that can impact how force and energy, and again thinking about the repetitive action of running, like how that is felt and experienced through the knee every single time.

So if it hurts on the front side of your knee or the top side, to me I’m thinking quads, right? So quadriceps, those are the muscles on the top of your thigh, your kneecap actually rests in the tendon of the quad. So even if it is hurting just below the kneecap, that still could be caused from tight quads or something going on in the quads.

Then we have like inside of the knee where sometimes it hurts there. And also, if you’re experiencing pain that’s not directly on the joint line itself but more in the soft tissues, that’s where I’m definitely like, cool, let’s go look at all of the other things around it and be less concerned about what’s happening like directly in the joint. You know what I mean?

So inside of the knee we’re talking inner thigh, so your adductors, some of your hamstrings attach along the inside of the knee and go all the way down below the knee joint. Which means too that your calves can also be involved. So who’s a runner and doesn’t have tight calves? So your calf muscles actually cross at the back of the knee as well.

So again, the knee is being impacted by what’s happening at the hip, what’s happening at the foot and ankle, what’s happening with your quads, with your calves, inner thighs, hamstrings. On the outside you have your IT band, which hey guess what, is also connected to what’s happening in your glutes. It’s all one continuous sheet of fascia, which is connective tissue.

So that connective tissue connects but it also means, again, that dysfunction happening in one area can impact what’s happening in another area. So whether it’s the knee or the foot or the ankle whatever, just because it hurts there doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the only place to focus because of mechanics, you know, overuse, under use, compensation, injury elsewhere could be impacting what’s happening at the knee.

So a lot of things, but the best place to start I would say definitely would be quads and calves.

Jill: Okay. I mean, what I just heard from you is that knee pain has so much more to do with your muscles and their attachments than it does to the actual joint itself.

Alex: Yeah, and I mean there could be 100%, you know, damage to the joint. Let’s say you have meniscus tear or something like that. And honestly too, like structural issues whether it be meniscal tears or bulging discs in your lower back or something like that, the research does show this, they were looking at bulging discs in the lower back and they did MRIs of a bunch of people with pain and without pain.

And even the people who did not have pain, some of those people had structural issues in their back. Ah bulging disc, you know, some sort of thing that should be the cause of pain but isn’t always necessarily the cause of pain.

So just because there’s a structural issue, even if it’s a meniscal tear or something like that, doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s the root cause of pain. Which also means that a surgical fix of that meniscal tear may not resolve the pain if that wasn’t what was causing all the pain in the first place.

And that’s the thing too about surgery, is you have scar tissue because the surgeon is cutting through everything to get all the way down to that joint. So now you have another thing you have to work with. And then you also have however many weeks you are non-weight bearing or using crutches or something else. And now you have another compensation pattern to work with.

So the I’m not anti-surgery, but I don’t think that that is the best first option for most people. And exploring other things like we’re talking about of doing, you know, self-massage and addressing the tension in your quads. Not just by stretching, but by actually getting in there like your physical therapist or massage therapist would to release any tension, but then strengthen everything around it too.

I would say 98.9% of the time that will help resolve and lessen your pain so that you can get back to running and do what you want without being worried that surgery is the only thing that you have to do.

Jill: Yeah, okay, I love that you said all of that because I have a torn meniscus and I run without knee pain. And I remember going to the doctor, and again I went to an orthopedic surgeon thinking, okay, I have a knee problem, I should go to an orthopedic doctor. And he’s like, well, your meniscus is torn so we need to get in there, we need to clean it up, we need to like trim the edges.

And I’m like, hold up. Right? And I said that doesn’t sound good to me, but I want to run a marathon next year. And he’s like, oh, no, you aren’t going to be run in a marathon, this is a terrible idea. And I was like, all right, well, thank you, your opinion is noted. And I went and I found another doctor, a non-surgical doctor, and we did a lot of strengthening work and a lot of, oh my gosh, the pain of the massage.

I get tears in my eyes just thinking about it. But really, that’s what solved the issue and several years later I weigh more than I did, like probably like 30 or 40 pounds more than I did when the doctor told me I shouldn’t be a runner. And I’m running pain free with a torn meniscus, with all the things, right?

So for sure, like everything you told me, I’m definitely living proof of that. But there’s something that you mentioned that I kind of want to dig into a little more because you talked about maybe stretching is not actually the answer. Because I think most runners are like, oh, I just need to stretch more and I need to improve my flexibility.

But I think you just kind of hinted that maybe that’s actually not a true fix. Like maybe it’s a temporary solution, but doesn’t really solve the problem.

Alex: Yeah, I also want to like paint a metaphor for all of us too because what you said about how painful massage is, I remember in PT when I had knee pain in high school, they were like running their forearm, the physical therapist, down the outside of my IT band and I was like, this must be hell, like this is awful.

And so I just want to let everybody know too that it doesn’t have to be super intense and painful to work. It’s sort of like if you’re considering like dental health, right? Every day, we can brush our teeth, it takes like two minutes, it’s easy peasy. You don’t have to have a root canal every time.

Jill: I love this metaphor. Yes, because I was in so much pain I was on crutches and so I basically needed a root canal on my IT band and a variety of other things, yes.

Alex: A little bit is helpful, you know, before everyone is like, I can never.

Jill: Yeah, yeah. Right, that thank you for clarifying that because yeah, for sure, like this was crisis for me. And so I was like, I don’t care what you have to do. But yeah, if you do maintenance and like prehab instead of rehab, right, it doesn’t have to be painful. Thank you for clarifying that. I don’t mean to scare anybody off.

Alex: Like I’ll never roll my IT band. No, you can do it and it can be, I always describe it as like uncomfortable or maybe you have sensation. But we want it to be like a good pain, like a hurts so good rather than just it hurts.

So stretching, let’s talk like flexibility as well because I think there’s this idea that if I’m tight, then obviously if I stretch then I will be less tight. But stiffness or inflexibility is typically there for a reason, right? Your body is trying to create stability where it may or may not already exist.

And again, that can be from overuse if a tissue is being asked to do more than it’s capable of again and again and again. The tissue itself, the connective tissue, the fascia we talked about, the muscle, everything tightens up to just protect it from being overstretched.

Also, if there’s been an injury, right, you tweaked your knee or you sprained your ankle, your brain goes, hey, that hurt. I don’t want that to happen again, I’m going to just get everything super, super tight to protect it. So a protective mechanism or almost like a soft tissue cast.

And then also if there’s a lack of strength and your brain doesn’t trust that you’re able to get in and out of a position safely, your brain goes, cool, we don’t do that because we can’t. So we just don’t do that. We can get from point A to point B some other way, regardless of what it looks like mechanically, but we don’t do that specific thing.

So if you’re stretching and you get that moment, and it’s not even momentarily, let’s say like I don’t have an exact number so I don’t want to like throw one out. But it’s temporary, right? The relief is temporary. You feel more flexible with maybe you had some discomfort, it is relieved. But it usually comes back definitely the next day, maybe even that same day because the tightness, again, is trying to create that stability.

So the fix for inflexibility isn’t just stretching, but actually a combination of soft tissue massage work and strength building. And so the soft tissue work, like we talked about, doesn’t have to be awful and terrible, it can be quite delightful. That helps to improve your body’s sense of where you are in space.

So if I were to tell you like, hey, I want you to contract just your right quad, your brain might be like, “Okay, how do I do that?” But if you do some soft tissue work, you roll on a therapy ball, you roll on a foam roller, you use a massage gun, like any of those tools, your brain now goes, “Oh wait, I know what that area feels like because I just had it touched and now I can better connect to it.”

So touch actually does improve this body awareness. And so we use that improved sense of body awareness to our advantage to then follow it up with some strengthening exercises. With this it’s like all the things that were tight before and not really firing, there’s now this window of opportunity to take advantage of so that when you do, again, I’m thinking like knee specifically.

So let’s say you’re having knee pain, and it’s mostly on the inside of your knee. I might have you do something like roll your calves out, not just up and down, but maybe getting into the sides of it, spending like two and a half minutes. And then following that up with perhaps a single leg balance, where you’re just tapping the opposite heel to the ground and bending your knee and standing up, right.

So we’ve addressed the tension in the calf, that maybe that’s where the pain is coming from. And then the exercise is asking all of those muscles around it to work in this new and improved environment. And your brain goes, oh hey, I can do that movement. And it didn’t hurt this time and everybody came to the party to do the work, maybe we could do that again next time.

And so I mean, it’s like a habit like anything else, where you retrain your brain and body how to work together more efficiently, addressing any tension, any dysfunction that’s there. And the flexibility improves as a result of that.

But if I were just to go and stretch my calf day after day after day after day, or before every run, which I see all runners, right, on the curb doing the calf stretch, right? And then you go on your run and you’re like, man, it’s still tight. Because we’re not also addressing the movement patterns that are contributing to that tension in the first place.

So that’s my very long winding answer of why stretching, it’s like, it’s all right, but there’s much better ways to help your brain and body work together more efficiently so that you can move in all the ways you want to without feeling restricted.

Jill: I fucking love all of this. And I do, like one thing that I want to pull out of this, because I’ve got several more questions. But one thing I want to kind of address right now is, because this is one thing that I tell my runners, like please don’t do your static stretching before you go for a run. I don’t think it, it’s not helpful. But I do think the dynamic stretching is helpful.

Alex: 100%.

Jill: Because you’re going through a range of motion. And you just explained to me why it is, because it’s preparing your brain and your neural network for the movement. So can you say a little bit more about what dynamic stretching is and why it’s so important to do it before you run. And then, you know, save the static stretching for afterwards, if you choose to do it.

Alex: Yeah. And actually, there has been some research on static stretching and it reduces the reactivity of your muscles. So basically, if you were to just like bend over and touch your toes and hold it for however long, the nerve endings in the muscles that are responsible for that firing, they get like sleepy. And so that’s why like a yin yoga class and then a marathon, like they just they don’t work together.

So dynamic stretching is stretching in which you are moving. And I absolutely do that before all of my workouts as well. I have like a set routine I do to just kind of like check in and see what’s up. And then if I find that there are some areas that feel just grouchy for that day, then I’ll spend some extra time on them.

But dynamic movement, let’s take like a lunge for example. A static stretch would be I’m just in this lunge and I’m just hanging out. And a dynamic stretch would be movement, whether you’re moving back and forth, maybe you’re bending and straightening the back knee. It doesn’t have to be super complicated but dynamic stretching, like you said, helps to prep and wire your brain and body for movement.

Jill: Oh, I absolutely love this. Okay, thank you. So anybody who’s ever heard me say don’t static stretch before you run, please do your dynamic stretching, this is why. I love it when my guests like validate me. Thank you for that.

Alex: I know, right?

Jill: So let’s talk about other things besides stretching, because that’s really your jam, is all of the ways that you can have healthy muscles and joints without stretching and without surgery. So let’s kind of dive into creating healthy knees through all of these other alternative tools and techniques that again, you can do while you’re watching Bridgerton on Netflix.

Alex: 100%. Yeah, I listen to audiobooks, I watch TV. I’m always like sitting on the floor, my husband’s like on the couch and I’ll be like rolling things and doing my work. But yeah, think of it as like body maintenance. Because I think that’s the other thing, is people are like, well, I don’t have time to stretch, or I don’t know what to do for stretching. I think that’s another big thing.

And your mobility practice, which when I say mobility I’m considering that like soft tissue mobilization, which is able to be far more specific directly on to the area that you want to target compared to stretching. So again, if stretching is your only option, okay, maybe.

But even if you were just to get a tennis ball and you could get a tennis ball on your calf, or get a tennis ball into your quad, that’s going to help to relax the muscle fibers. It’s going to help to relax the connective tissues more efficiently than just kind of like pulling on either end of the muscle, like if you were to do I’m like a quad stretch where you do like your heel to your butt, you know. So soft tissue mobilization is just way more effective.

And then a few minutes a day is enough. I think as overachievers, perfectionist, type A type of people like myself, we’re like, well, I have to do like three hours or it doesn’t count. And I think it’s, first of all, if you do something, it’s better than nothing. So how can we make doing something as easy as possible? And like you said, doing it while you watch television. It’s part of my evening wind down routine.

And I like to focus on a specific body area. So knees, right? Let’s say today’s your knee day, so roll or massage a muscle around that area. A foam roll, again whatever tool you have, and then following it up with some sort of exercise that’s going to help to again, rewire to strengthen. And then you’re done for the day.

And then tomorrow, right, you could do hips. I know, I see your eyes. You’re like, wait, what? That’s enough?

Jill: I don’t have to do the whole body all day, every day?

Alex: No. No, no, no, because it’s also it’s like it’s impractical, right? Who, has time to do the whole body? I do have, again, like my preset warm up that I always do. And I also have like a post workout roll out. I always make sure quads, calves, usually glutes, and if I hit those then at least the soreness piece is taken care of. And then my mobility work is like the fine tuning kind of stuff.

Jill: Are you talking like with a ball or a foam roller? Do you use a combination of those?

Alex: Specifically like therapy balls, and I’ve run various experiments in which I’m like, cool, what happens if I only use a massage gun for like two weeks? And every single time my body is just like, nope, that’s not enough. And it’s sort of too like brushing and flossing, right? If you skip flossing for like a week, you can tell. If you forget to brush your teeth one morning, you can tell.

And as you’ve also alluded to, if I skip my running I can feel it in my body. Our bodies were designed to move and mobility work, soft tissue work, strengthening work, this is all just another way to introduce movement into your body in a controlled and helpful way. And so whatever you have, again, if it’s just a foam roller, if it’s just a tennis ball, great, do it with that. But like with anything, a tool that’s designed for specifically that will be more effective and efficient.

But yeah, so you could do knees one day, hips the next day, maybe you do upper back the day after. And the reason why it all works together is because you’re a whole body, your body is connected, everything is connected. And when the through line is always improving breathing and improving my position and posture.

So whether I’m doing like a side plank, or I’m standing, I’m still trying to get myself as organized and stacked in my best position as I can and I’m always practicing that. And that carries over into everything you do, whether it’s running, whether it’s doing laundry, whether it’s washing the dishes.

When your body is in better positions for everything you do, that’s where we get to the place where things start feeling better.

Jill: I love that because I think that people are like, oh, my knee hurts so I need to treat my knee. And it’s like, no, actually, there’s probably other things that you need to treat as well, that are contributing to that pain.

And so that kind of gives us like, I don’t know, I think that gives me a little bit of relief to think that like, oh, I don’t have bad knees, I just need to figure out a way to kind of like realign my body, or fix the imbalances in my body. Rather than like, oh, I’ve just got shitty knees that I’m always going to have to deal with.

Alex: Yeah, no, your body is constantly adapting and changing. I think it’s like every two years every cell in your body with the exception of like nerve cells is a completely new cell. And it responds to the input that it’s gotten before. So if we keep doing more of the same, then we get more of the same. But if we make those consistent changes, even as little as 15 minutes a day, over time your body adapts and changes and things feel better.

Jill: I feel like if you’re somebody who’s got a desk job and you’re like I do not have time to get down on the floor and do all this stuff, I feel like you could probably just like put a therapy ball under a butt cheek and roll it or like roll your plantar fascia on a ball. I feel like there’s so many things that we can do even when we’re sitting in a Zoom meeting, because people are only seeing you from the chest up. There’s a lot of stuff you can do.

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, or even end of the workday, right? When you get home, finding a time where it fits, like you said, your Bridgerton time. It doesn’t matter when it happens, as long as a few minutes are spent. So if you already are headed out on your run, maybe before your run you’re like, let me undo the desk from my body, right? Let me roll out my upper traps which are just so grouchy from a day of Zoom calls. Let me roll out my feet that have been in shoes all day, and like my hips, right?

And then I go on my run, your body is just better prepared for it than it would be if you just went out the door and went on your way. And I can see too people are like, well, I don’t have time for that. Then just pick one, right? All I’m asking for is literally like three more minutes of your time before you go out so that you can feel better later. And to me, that’s worth the three minutes, you know?

Jill: Yeah. So this is so interesting, years ago I had a client who swore that she did not have time to walk for five minutes before her run to warm up. I was like, seriously, don’t just walk out the door and start running, you’ve got to ease into it. I was like, give me three minutes and I swear your run is going to be easier. And she’s like, I don’t have time, I don’t have time.

Well, one day she had time and she walked for three minutes. And then she did her run and was like a minute per mile faster.

Alex: Imagine that.

Jill: So I suspect that three minutes of doing some kind of rolling on your body is going to allow you to be so much more comfortable in your run, you might even get it done faster. It might save you time in the long run.

Alex: Oh, 100%. I mean my post workout rolling and mobility work is so I can walk like a normal person the next day.

Jill: Yeah, exactly.

Alex: It’s like so I can sit down at the kitchen table without like dying into the chair.

Jill: Oh, that’s so great. So okay, so here’s another question that I get a lot is like when do I know, like what kinds of knee pain should I be saying I should take some time off and rest it or ice it? And what types of pain are like, actually, I should probably keep moving? What says rest and what says keep going?

Alex: Yes, well I think pain free movement is our goal. And if you think of pain as, you know, it’s a signal, it’s a red flag from your body to your brain. And one that is best not ignored, although I understand too we all have different tolerances of what we can put up with before having to do something.

So let’s say you’re out on a run and something starts hurting. I always, like even in a workout too, I’ll hit pause. What can I do right now? Maybe it’s another dynamic stretch. If I have my massage gun nearby, again, I’m in my garage, but if you’re on a run can I use a hand to massage this muscle that’s having an issue or whatever? Does that make a difference? Yes or no.

I am not a fan of pushing through the pain because again, it is a signal. It’s telling you that something isn’t going the way it needs to go. And also I’m not a fan of continuing to go when something is really causing you discomfort and pain because we’re just further deepening that groove, that learned habit in the brain.

And so even, you know, we talked about like structural stuff as well, let’s say you have a tweak and you let it rest. And it’s starting to feel better but every time you go out on a run it starts to hurt again. After usually about six weeks, any repair of tissues that’s going to happen has already happened. And so any pain that is remaining, for the most, part is because your brain is saying, every time I do that, it hurts.

So to get out of it more rest isn’t necessarily going to fix it because it’s not going to change the mechanics. It’s not going to change the learned movement that your body and brain have been doing, which is again, where that mobility work comes into play. So if something hurts, do something about it right away.

If you don’t know what to do, physical therapists are an awesome resource. I know many states allow you to have open access where you can just go to your PT, you don’t have to have a prescription from your doctor beforehand. So I’d recommend that.

Go get a massage, and whatever hurts the most, then go home and do that with your therapy balls and your foam roller and your massage gun. Because now you’re like, oh, that’s the thing that’s like so grouchy, I should probably be doing more of that.

So I use chiropractors, massage therapists, other people to help me see what I can’t see for myself and go where I’m not going. And then I go home and keep doing that same work. They can point out your blind spots.

Jill: That’s fascinating. I never thought of that before.

Alex: Yeah, because we get into our grooves too, right? I’m like I love rolling my quads and working on my hips, but I don’t often do like my rotator cuff. And every time I get in there I’m like that’s awful, I should probably do that more. So they’re a good reminder.

I wouldn’t like, how to say this? I am not a fan of waiting till it gets so bad and going to your orthopedic surgeon first stop, because orthopedic surgeons, their job is to cut. That’s what they do. That’s what they’re brilliant at. That’s what we need them for. But that’s also with their blinders what they can see.

And so for them, any type of structural issue is a problem to be solved and if they can’t solve it with their scalpels, they’re like well, I don’t know what to do. So before you have surgery, I would say exhaust all of the non-surgical options of physical therapy, mobility work, et cetera.

A lot of the clients I work with have done all of the things first and then either have even had surgery or don’t want to go that route when they come to me. So they’ve done physical therapy and it’s gotten them to a point, right? And for you who’ve done physical therapy as well, they’re really great at getting you to like, oh, I can be at rest and not have pain, but not necessarily push back into my workouts or my activities and not fall back into those same discomforts.

So don’t wait for pain. Acknowledge it, listen to it, and then do something about it. But that’s also why it’s helpful to have your own routine. So when was this? It was like a couple of weeks ago, I was doing, again I was doing a workout in my garage and I was like throwing a sandbag around and my back was like, no, you don’t. And I was like, oh, okay. So I put the weights down, went on to a different type of exercise. Came back, can I do this now? No, I cannot. Okay, cool. I’m going to leave it alone.

And then I have all these tools, right? I know how to massage. I know how to reengage through my abdominals. I know how to remind my body how to work together better. And then when things don’t start to change and they’re not starting to feel better, that’s when I go and call in, I call in like the big guns. I go see my chiropractor, I go see a massage therapist, I go seek out a physical therapist’s help.

So I think we even do a disservice to ourselves of not having our own body maintenance set up when we go to a professional. Because then we’re walking in, we’re saying, hey, fix me. It hurts, my knee hurts. And like, okay, cool, but where? Versus when you already have an established practice of maintaining your body, even if it’s three minutes a day, you at least have that under your belt so when you go see this other healthcare professional you can collaborate with them, and it makes their job infinitely easier. So we should all be doing something right now.

Jill: Oh my gosh, I just love everything about this because it really is, it’s empowering, right? You’re like no, listen, you have to be the master of what’s going on in your body and be aware of what you can, like what’s within your scope and what’s not.

But getting to know your body really, really well means that when you do need somebody that is going to give you a massage, like self-massage is a thing but also like I don’t know, I can’t massage my back when it gets all knotted up. I kind of need someone else to do that for me, right?

Alex: That’s where therapy balls come into play.

Jill: Or a therapy ball, exactly.

Alex: It’s also too not being afraid of every sensation that comes up. Because we’ve been trained to not trust our body, that anything we feel is awful and evil and it’s going to be surgery. It’s the only choice, it’s like surgery or cancer, like those are the only options.

And so understanding the nuance too between good pain and bad pain and what’s soreness and having a toolbox so you know when my adductors feel funky or my knee feels weird, let me try the tools that I have. And when those don’t work, or if those don’t work satisfactorily, then I can go ask somebody a question.

And then for another metaphor think about for a car. As a woman, especially I’m five one, I’m blonde, I look young, I get sent through the wringer when it comes to my car and mechanic repair bullshit. But understanding about like I’ve changed my oil a couple of times, I did a brake job with my dad.

I understand more about the car now, so when I go to the mechanic and they’re like, well, your exhaust filter needs to be replaced. I’m like bullshit, that doesn’t exist. Can you tell me what’s actually going on?

So it is empowering to have, and you’re not going to be an orthopedic surgeon. I’m not trying to be a doctor, I just want to better understand what I feel in my body so it’s not so scary when something happens.

Jill: Oh, I love that, right? Because basically what I’m hearing from you is like it’s normal for everyone to feel pain at some point or another. And the pain is just a signal to look deeper. It is not something to panic about. It is not something where you make it mean like oh my god, I’m broken.

Because when we think that, like oh my god, I’m broken, what do we do? We hide. We’re like, well I’m just going to keep powering through it. But I’m definitely not going to see my doctor because he’s going to tell me to stop running and I don’t want to stop running.

And there’s this whole other option where you just kind of like try to do the work on your own body and get to know your own limitations and how your body feels and like kind of rewiring your own brain through the techniques that you teach. Which sounds a lot less onerous than, I don’t know.

Like because we just moved to Philly and my sports doctor is in Princeton and I’m like, crap, now I’ve got to find another one. I’m like, wait, maybe I’ll just learn how to use therapy balls and doing that daily maintenance. And maybe I won’t actually need to have a sports doctor on call. I love it.

So okay, one one last question, what is it like to work with you? If somebody wants to know more about what you teach, especially the techniques that you teach, where should they start? Like what can they expect?

Alex: Yeah, well start at my website, aewellness.com. A-E wellness.com.

Jill: Got it, okay.

Alex: Like my name, Alexandria Ellis wellness.com. I do everything virtual because when I was just out of college I was working in a physical therapy clinic and right away saw that there was two types of people who would come into the door. The ones who are like I’m going to lay here and you can fix me, right? I’m like, nope, it’s not quite how it works. And then the ones who were like really engaged in the process and ready to do their homework.

So by being virtual I can teach you how to do stuff, but then you do it. And so every success, every win, every change is because you did it. And so that win and that empowerment is 100% your own, which lights me up to no end.

So I do mobility assessments with people where you send me a video of you doing some specific movements so I can see how you move and then come up with a personalized plan that is a mixture of mobilizations with the therapy balls like we talked about, and activations like the strengthening exercises we talked about specific to you and your body and what’s going on.

And that’s really the best place for people to start, especially if you have an injury, if you have been through physical therapy, if you have exhausted what seems like all the options and nothing is really working, and you are someone who does your homework, that would be a really great place to start.

But I also have workshops available, digital programs available like the Mobility Mastery Toolkit. Which is if you want a 30 day like here’s where to get started, that exists as well. But that’s all on my website.

Jill: Awesome. And do you have a YouTube channel? I feel like you have a YouTube channel.

Alex: I do, I have a YouTube that’s also on the website. I’m on TikTok, Instagram, all the places.

Jill: All the places, I love it.

Alex: Basically I can’t stop talking, so that’s part of it.

Jill: I love it.

Alex: And then I also have a podcast, The Body Nerd Show. So I put shows out there weekly.

Jill: Fabulous, okay.

Alex: We talk about stuff like this, just different things that can impact your body so that you can understand the anatomy behind it so it’s not so frightening. Because again, when you understand it a little bit more, then you feel empowered to try stuff. Because it’s like you’re not going to break your body, you’re very strong and very resilient so it can put up with a lot.

Jill: I love it. All right, well we will have a link to aewellness.com in the show notes. And then what’s your your Instagram and your TikTok? Are you aewellness there as well?

Alex: I’m aewellness on TikTok. And then to keep it confusing I am @hollaformala on Instagram, which I really should change but I’m emotionally attached to that and I don’t want to break all the links.

Jill: I got you. And then of course your podcast is The Body Nerd Show, so make sure that you check that out. I love that name.

All right, thank you so much for joining me here today. This was an amazing conversation. I feel like I learned a lot so I’m hoping that our listeners learned a lot as well. And everybody go meet Alex because, first of all, she’s hilarious. She’s super cool. She’s cute as a button. She’s the whole package. So go check her out. And yeah, that is it. Thank you so much for being here today.

Alex: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Hey, real quick before you go, if you enjoyed listening to this episode, you have got to check out Up And Running. It’s my 30 day online program that will teach you exactly how to start running, stick with it, and become the runner you have always wanted to be. Head on over to notyouraveragerunner.com/upandrunning to join. I would love to be a part of your journey.