Ep #247: Showing Off Your Skin, Spandex, and Confidence with Style Coach Judith Gaton

Welcome to The Not Your Average Runner Podcast. If you’re a woman who has never felt athletic but you still dream about becoming a runner, you are in the right place. I’m Jill Angie, a certified running and life coach, and I teach women how to start running, feel confident, and change their lives. And now I want to help you.

Jill: Hey runners, so I am back today with the one and only, the fabulous, the glam, Ms. Judith Gaton. And this is actually part two of a conversation we had like almost a year ago, I think.

Judith: I think, yeah.

Jill: Yeah, it was episode 203. So if you haven’t listened to episode 203, make sure you go back and check that out as well. This is kind of part two of that conversation because there was some shit that we didn’t get to and we’re going to get to it today. So, Judith, welcome back to the show, I’m so excited.

Judith: Thank you having me. Hello, rebel runners. I’m excited to be back because I feel like we’ve been pumping each other up for this conversation for like a few weeks.

Jill: I know.

Judith: So I’m really excited, it’s good.

Jill: I know. And so for anybody who isn’t aware, Judith and I, actually we talk on a weekly basis and we have a lot in common. She’s a style coach, and why don’t you tell everybody what you do? Just for the folks that haven’t had a chance to listen to episode 203 yet.

Judith: Yeah, so I’m a style coach for curvy women and I like that to say that includes all the women, y’all, because women, and if you identify as a woman, you have curves on your body. The body has natural curves even if you think you’re in a thinner body or a “skinny” body, welcome to the club, you have curves on your body, that’s how humans are shaped.

So I help women to dress and love the body that they’re in right now, no diets or Spanx required is what I like to say.

Jill: I love that. No Spanx required, but what about spandex?

Judith: Okay, let’s talk about spandex because we’ve been thinking about y’all. Just so you know, we think about you, we talk about you, Jill is obsessed with y’all, she loves you all so much. I think it was like a few weeks ago, I’m looking back at my calendar. It was a few weeks ago that we chatted about something that you were hearing a lot from your runners, and something that I hear similarly in the groups of women that I coach.

And I’ll let you talk about it, what were you seeing in your group, and hearing, Jill, that kind of sparked this whole conversation?

Jill: Yeah, so what I tend to see, especially from people that are maybe new to my work, the folks that have been working with me for a while aren’t saying this as much. But like when I talk about if you’re going to go out for a run on a hot day, I want you either in a tank top or just your sports bra because it allows your skin to breath. And when you’re getting hot, and you’re getting sweaty, and you want to keep your core temperature down, the best way to do that is to expose your skin.

And what I hear very often from folks is, “Oh, nobody needs to see that. I couldn’t possibly.” Or when I talk about wearing tights instead of sweatpants for a run because tights cling to your body and they reduce friction, they reduce air drag, they actually keep the jiggle under control. But again, what I hear from people is like, “Oh, nobody needs to see that.” And I’m like, “Everybody needs to see that.”

So what are your thoughts about this? Because I know you do a lot of work with women who really kind of struggle with thinking they need to look a certain way in their clothing.

Judith: Yeah, and I think there’s like sort of a theme that runs throughout. Like my body has to be a particular size or shape, or weight, or tone, et cetera, et cetera, fill in the laundry list of things we’re “supposed to do to our body” before we’re allowed to engage in a particular activity like running. Or get pictures taken of ourselves, or be in a picture that we can post on the internet, or participate in any number of activities that we would love to participate in but for the fact that we have all these thoughts about nobody needs to see that.

And the way I see this crop up, particularly with the arm thing. Y’all, free your arms in the summertime. I mean, unless you have religious concerns and some modesty requirements. I know our Mormon friends have to keep their arms covered, some of our Muslim friends have to keep their arms covered. So there’s some religious sects and we respect that, we understand that.

But for those of you who are coming from the mindset that your arms, I saw this on a Marvelous Mrs. Maisel episode. This is something we had chatted about a few weeks ago too, is like there’s a scene in The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, which is a show I love. This is no dis to the show. The writers are onto something in characterizing the thought process of a particular era.

In one of the scenes she comes into the house with this beautiful little halter dress on, she’s just taken her baby for a walk, she has the stroller. And her mom looks at her, takes her arm and is like, “You only have a few months left for those arms.” And she’s like, “Oh.” And she’s like, “Bolero.” And they both look at each other and agree that she needs to wear a bolero to now cover her arms because they’re going to be “past their prime” or whatever that means.

And I’ve heard so many things like this from so many women. Like my legs are past their prime so now I’m required to cover them. Or my arms, they’re past their prime so I have to cover them. And then add to that all the social programming about being a certain size, weight, shape, certain age, because we have glorification of certain ages. It’s a hot mess, y’all.

So I say all of that to say I get where the programming came in for you. Maybe you heard something from your mom about your arms not being, you know. Or nobody needs to see that, or just because they make it in your size doesn’t mean you can wear it or should wear it. We all hear things like this.

But what if for you to engage in the activity that you want to engage in, whatever the hobby is, particularly running since we’re on a running podcast. What if the key to doing it well was really wearing the spandex and freeing your arms and just allowing yourself to be yourself? I really want you to just sit with that, y’all.

Jill: I love that. And the phrase, nobody needs to see that, that breaks my heart when I hear somebody say that because what I hear is them saying my body is unacceptable. My body is offensive, right? Like nobody needs to see that when you think about your arms, it’s as if you don’t meet a certain physical standard then you might as well not even exist, right? Or you should just be over there in the corner with all of your blankets covering yourself and not ever participate because you have fat arms, or you have a belly that jiggles. Right?

It makes no sense to me on a logical, it makes perfect sense to me from a programming perspective because for sure we’ve all heard that. But when you really break it down, nobody needs to, what’s going to happen if somebody sees my fat arms exposed? Are their eyeballs going to explode? What do we think is going to happen?

Judith: And here’s the thing, I know some of you are hearing us and you’re having a visceral reaction, right? You’re like, “How dare people say things like that,” or “Who believes that?” But I want you to think about all of the times that you might have self-censored or opted out of something because you felt your appearance wasn’t “meeting some standard or criteria,” or your arms didn’t meet a standard or criteria.

We self-select out so often because we say things like this that sound like truisms, our arms do go past their prime. Really? There’s like an expiry date on arms? I’m curious, right? Or what will happen? Eyeballs will explode? Like really, y’all, I want you to start to answer your brain back when it offers you these things that sound so true. That arms or legs have expiry dates, that your decolletage once it comes to crepey skin or gets spots, we’re not allowed to show it and you have to now wear turtlenecks all the time. Yeah, you should see Jill’s face right now.

Jill: Well because I do, I have those crepey things on my neck now and when I first noticed it I was like, “Oh, I guess I’m going to have to wear turtlenecks now.” I watched my brain say nobody is going to want to look at that. And then I’m like, “Who the fuck are they? It’s my neck.” I don’t like turtlenecks, they’re not comfortable, they’re itchy, right? Like I’m just going to show my neck.

Judith: Yeah, or like now you have to wear scarves. Turtlenecks or scarves, the only way forward. And we’re saying this a little sarcastically, but with all the love in the world for you. These are the things we say that sound so true. I love that Jill paused and was like, “Who is they?” Right? Who is the they that we’re so concerned about? Nobody needs to see that, well who is the people we think are going to see that and why do they factor in? Why do they get to have a say?

Jill: Yeah, exactly.

Judith: Where do we get this from and who are we concerned about? And do I want to continue to believe this thing and be hot and itchy and uncomfortable? And in the running context chaffed like a mofo because you’re wearing things that are too big and not conformed to your body.

Jill: Yeah, I mean it really does make a huge difference in running. And I’ve talked to clients who have said it was really hot out and I was really struggling. And I’m like, all right, well talk me through your outfit. Well, you know, I was wearing a short sleeved shirt because I don’t feel comfortable showing off my arms. And they were just drenched with sweat and it slows them down physically, right, because their body can’t keep up with the demand for releasing heat because it’s encased in a shirt, right?

And I’m just like literally with running what you wear can actually impact your performance, and your comfort and your satisfaction with your run. And so because we’ve got this weird, “Oh, nobody needs to see that,” kind of thought in our brain that obviously was handed to us by our mother, or our sister, or the shitty mean girl at high school, whoever. Probably all three, right?

Because we’ve got that one sort of thought error in our brain that other people shouldn’t see my unacceptable body, we’re putting everything else at stake.

Judith: Yeah.

Jill: You’re literally putting the imaginary opinion of people you don’t know over your own comfort. You’re like, “Nope, that child that I might pass, who might see a fat body running, that child’s opinion is way more important than my comfort and my ability to be a runner in this body.” I’m like, “Nope, actually, not so. That is incorrect.”

Judith: Yeah, and to add a layer to this, what I was thinking about as you were speaking is there are women who fought for the right for you to exercise outdoors freely, to wear spandex and clothes that fit you, to literally create athleisure wear and athletic wear for women. Y’all, there’s like a whole history to this. And what comes to mind particularly, and I kind of giggle at this but also, oh God, bless those women, the women who had to wear those wool bathing costumes.

Jill: Oh my God.

Judith: Think about that, you’re in wool in a dress with like these little, short legs that go down to basically your calve. And then you have the bathing cap on because God forbid someone sees your loose hair. I have questions, but okay, sure. So we go to the beach in this wool getup in the sunshine, we’re hot. And wool has some breathable qualities, I’m not going to dis wool completely, there’s some benefits and we don’t even have to go there.

But just imagine this, and then you get in the water and the wool soaks up all the water and you’re trying swim but now you’re fucking drowning because you’re in a wool swim costume, lovey.

Jill: Yes, so I feel like there must have been a lot more drownings back in the day.

Judith: Poor women, like not only were the ability for us to go out and participate in leisure activities is a whole separate history of amazing women who were like, “No, we do this.” And then the athletes who came before who fought for the right for women to have proper bathing costumes that were akin to the men’s and close fitting to the body, like that’s a whole other history.

And then we get to this moment in time and we’re still having the conversation about what is acceptable for women athletes to wear or choose not to wear.

Jill: Yeah.

Judith: Now, obviously there’s some controversy around this, like even the volleyball players in the Olympics, right? They’re allowed to cover their bodies. So there’s both sides of this and I want to honor both sides of this conversation. You have the right to do whatever you want to your body at the heart of this.

Jill: Yeah. Right, that’s a great point too because I know that there are some folks that are deeply uncomfortable, maybe, with the concept of running in a sports bra, right. Even though it is truly, truly is way more comfortable from a physical perspective, right? If you’re making the decision to not run in a sports bra out of modesty, and again maybe you have some religious customs and so forth, I totally get that.

But if your only reason is just you think your body is somehow unacceptable to be present in public in its current state, that’s the notion that I really want to help people shift because I think that goes deep, right? That’s not just my body is unacceptable, because I’m sure that that extends to other areas of somebody’s life where there’s like all kinds of things about them that they think are broken that need to be fixed before they can participate in society.

Judith: Yeah, and think of all the things we miss out on.

Jill: Yeah.

Judith: Like the vacations we missed out on because we didn’t want to wear a bathing suit. The activities that we didn’t participate in because we’re like, “Well I don’t even know what I’m going to wear. And what are those other people going to wear? Okay, so I’ll just self-select out.”

Or you participated in the activity and you were so miserable because you wore something that wasn’t suited to the activity for fear that someone should see your body and there’s no pictures of you, you don’t remember the event fondly, you were like, “Fuck that vacation, that was terrible.” And all because you created so much physical discomfort for yourself that didn’t have to be.

Jill: Yeah, it is fascinating. I remember, this is kind of tangential to what we’re talking about, but it’s like a memory that just popped into my head. So a few years ago, this was pre-covid, you remember those times, pre-covid? And my husband has some friends who belong to this like public pool club place where there’s a pool and then there’s like a little park and you can buy drinks and stuff, and they invited us down.

And I had just bought my first bikini and I was like, “I’m going to wear this bikini. And I’m going to wear it in front of Andy’s friends that I’ve never met. And let’s see what happens.” And I was just kind of like, I didn’t know. I didn’t know if I would show up, because none of his friends are fat. I’m the fat one, everybody else is relatively, I want to say average size but they’re actually probably below average size at this point given the bell curve of sizes in the US.

But I showed up and I wore this bikini and for the first like half hour I think I was like waiting for someone to either say like, “Oh, you’re so brave showing up in a bikini,” or kind of give me a little bit of side eye, or just not talk to me and just be like, “Oh God, in a bikini, no.” And you know what? Literally nobody did that.

We went to the pool, we were like bouncing around in the pool having a great time, I’m in a bikini. I was actually the only one in a bikini. Everybody else, all the other women were in one piece suits and it kind of blew my mind because I remember ahead of time I still had a little bit of that, “Oh, nobody needs to see that. You’re going to embarrass yourself.” Like all of the terrible things. And you know what? Nobody fucking cared.

And I have pictures of me and Andy and I’m wearing a bikini. I let people take pictures of me in a bikini and I looked at those pictures and I was like, “What do you know, nobody died. The camera lens did not break because a fat woman wore a bikini in public.” And it just kind of blew my mind because even though I had done so much work on loving my body even though it doesn’t fit into the typical body shape, that was one of the first times I really put it to the test. And I mean, lots of people there and nobody said a thing.

And you know what? Even if they did, I couldn’t hear them so they were obviously muttering it under their breath low enough that I couldn’t hear. Nobody said a thing and I was like, “Oh, what have I been so fucking worried about?” Right?

Judith: Right. And I think seriously, y’all, even just allowing yourself as an experiment to just test the waters.

Jill: Yeah.

Judith: Like what if for half your run?

Jill: Right.

Judith: Like do the first half clothed, and you’re going to be clothed unless you’re in a nudist colony and that’s how you roll.

Jill: It is not fun to run naked. Do not do that, do not do it. Just FYI.

Judith: That’s the voice of experience, y’all.

Jill: I used to have a treadmill in my house and one time I was like, “I wonder what it would be like.” I had running shoes on, I was like, “I wonder what it would feel like to run with no clothes on.” It was very uncomfortable. 10 out of 10 do not recommend, especially if you’ve got big boobies. But anyway, I digress.

Judith: I love that, the voice of experience, y’all. So we’re not advocating, this is so good, for those of you who are like, “They’re telling us to run half naked.” No, you literally just heard from Jill, she’s telling you not to do that.

Jill: Do not do that, it’ll hurt. It’ll physically hurt you. Do not.

Judith: So good. Okay, so now that we’ve eliminated that potential objection, we’ve not advocating that. But let’s say for the first half of your run you wear your shirt or whatever it is you normally wear. And the last half we eliminate a layer. Like if you’re used to running the hoodie, and the shirt, and the sports bra, maybe we just take the hoodie off. Maybe we take off our long sleeve. Maybe we take of our t-shirt just for a small portion of it so you can show your brain nothing happens.

Jill: Yeah, love that. I actually started by like I would take my shirt off after I was done running but while I was stretching. And I would use it to like mop my brow, you know?

Judith: The hand motion there was amazing.

Jill: The hand motion, this is being recorded on video, I’ll have to go back and get a screenshot of that.

Judith: That’s a great GIF of just Jill mopping her brow so delicately, it was amazing. Sorry, go ahead.

Jill: But right, I just love that idea of hey, let’s just take it step-wise and just test the waters and see what happens and notice that maybe you have a tank top underneath your shirt and then halfway through your run you take off the shirt and then you’ve got the tank top. Or you could wear a tank top underneath the hoodie and you could start out with the hoodie.

But honestly, nobody is really looking. And first of all, if they are, fuck them. If somebody is staring at you while you’re running, I’d just be like, “Listen, I have mace, so how do you want this to go down?”

Judith: That’s the Philly coming out, I just saw it. I just saw it. I got mace, what’s up?

Jill: What’s up, right? Really, when I run alone in certain neighborhoods, although now I’m in Princeton, like there’s not too many places that I’m scared of here. But I do, I’m like I got the things that are visible when I run. I’m just like, I may not be wearing a shirt, but you can see my kitty cat brass knuckles with the pointy ears, might take your eye out. We digress.

Judith: I think there’s a way to like slowly acclimatize yourself to the idea. Here’s the beautiful thing, even if another human has a side eye, or makes a comment, or even cat calls, you can show yourself that you’re so capable of responding to those things and still moving forward. That you’re capable of feeling the emotion that comes up for you when someone does something, or says something, or glances in your direction.

Like you’re still capable physically of completing your run and completing your swim. What if we just took the beach cover up or pool cover up off for just a little bit? Not the whole time, y’all. Just start to acclimatize your brain to like, I’ve got this, probably nobody cares. And even if they do, I’ve still got my own back.

Jill: Yeah.

Judith: Y’all are some tough cookies, we believe in you.

Jill: Well, and what would that, like let’s kind of like walk it through and maybe you can explain what that might look like. So imagine you’re at the beach and you’re like, okay, I’m in my bathing suit, bikini or not. It could be a one piece, totally fine. But you’re like, I’m going to appear in just my bathing suit. So I’m going to take the cover up off and I’m going to lay down on my blanket, my towel, whatever.

And then you hear somebody say something, right? Like, “Oh,” maybe you even hear somebody say, “Nobody needs to see that.” Walk us through it. How does it work to sort of feel that emotion and experience it and let it go, and not make it mean anything about you?

Judith: Yeah, such a good question. So the first thing I want you to know is you might feel, and this is a common emotion that my clients explain to me. So I’m going to just talk about the ones that would naturally and most likely come up is like shame. You might suddenly feel some shame.

And shame in your body usually is like a warm, what we call like I got red in the face, like that warm sensation in your face. Maybe a sinking feeling in your chest, your tummy starts to get a little tumultuous. You maybe feel like a pulling sensation, like shame, right?

That’s when we say like processing an emotion, it’s how does it physically feel in my body, all these different things that are happening in my body? And the name I have for that thing is shame, right? So I want you to expect that that might occur. But I don’t want you to make it mean that anything has gone wrong or that you have to suddenly change your behavior.

All that’s come up is you had a cascade of sensations in your body that we call shame. And you’re allowed to be with that, be present with it without immediately grabbing a towel and covering yourself up, pulling a cover up off. And then we can start to, like once you just acknowledge like, “Oh, here’s the shame that they talked about. Jill and Judith said this might come up, here it is.”

The next thing is not to modify your behavior to accommodate the people, but immediately find compassion for yourself, right? So, “Okay, love, we thought this might happen. I’ve got you. We don’t have to put a towel on unless you want to. We don’t have to cover up unless you want to. It’s totally up to you what we do next, but I’ve got you.” And like just literally loving, like best friend in the world is sitting next to you.

You can be angry too. Maybe shame doesn’t come up for you, maybe it’s anger. Like fuck that dude, right? Or it could be a woman, it doesn’t have to be a dude, it could be another human, right? You can be angry too. You know you’re allowed to feel angry, y’all?

Jill: Wait, what? We’re allowed to be angry?

Judith: We’re totally allowed to be angry and indignant. Like that’s not cool, bro. What is going on? Why is it okay to comment on people’s bodies? You’re allowed to be angry too. And again, recognize the sensations, right?

It might be heat in your face, notice how close this is going to be to shame, it’s kind of interesting. The sensation of heat in your face, maybe you feel your chest puff up a little bit. And there’s like a rush to your head. Like you feel that blood sensation rush. That’s why they call it seeing red, like there’s a blood sensation rush.

And all those sensations, we call anger. Like it’ll be there. Judith and Jill said it might happen. Oh, here it is, here it comes. Okay, what do we want to do next? And I don’t have to yell at the guy, or girl, or human. I don’t have to respond at all, unless I want to. I don’t have to cover up, unless I want to. I don’t have to strip off the other half of my bikini to show them, unless I want to.

It’s totally up to you what you do next. But you’re totally able to feel the emotion without taking a next step of action. You could just be with yourself and then find your way to compassion for yourself.

Jill: Yeah.

Judith: What do you want to do now, love? Totally up to you, I got you.

Jill: I love that so much.

Judith: And that’s where we want you to like practice this kind of exposure therapy.

Jill: Yeah. Well, and just remembering that you have the right to take up as much space as you want. And I think it’s sort of like women are taught to take up as little space as possible, both physically and metaphorically. And I think when we take up physical space, right, we kind of almost feel like we need to take up less metaphorical space because, oh, I’ve like used up all the space with my body, right? So I need to make my personality and my interactions and everything as small as possible.

And so that might mean that if somebody comments on your body feel like, right, you feel shame, like I’ve done something wrong. I mean, I don’t even know, what is the thought that comes to mind? I’m trying to put myself in that position.

Judith: I mean I’ve had similar situations where I’ve felt that rush and like I’ve done something wrong, some form of that. I’ve invited this in some way is a thought that I had. Like I could have prevented this from happening if I had only X, Y, or Z, right?

But it’s so interesting, because like in the context of assault, if a woman said that and she had been assaulted, we’d be like, “Oh my God, honey, no, of course not. No one’s allowed to treat you that way, what was done to you is terrible.” But when it comes to like verbal assault, we’re less inclined to be like, “Oh, honey, you did nothing to deserve that.” Right?

Jill: Yeah.

Judith: But it’s still not cool, this behavior that was put at us or towards us, is still not acceptable behavior. But in one context we come to the rescue of the survivor of whatever this was, and in the other contexts we’re less likely and we start to buy into the paradigm of like, well, what were you wearing, right?

Jill: Yes.

Judith: It’s so interesting.

Jill: Right.

Judith: And there’s this beautiful exhibit, there’s an activist and I forget her name and I apologize, but you can look it up. And the name of this traveling exhibition was, What Were You Wearing? Because that’s the question people ask victims. And it’s literally on display, all these different victims of assault, what they were wearing when they were assaulted. And I can tell y’all it’s a whole myriad of kinds of outfits.

Jill: Yeah.

Judith: It’s all like completely covered up outfits, I mean, however you want to phrase that. And I don’t mean to be insensitive when I say it that way, I’m just saying it for an easy way of saying it. There’s all kinds of outfits there, which just lets us know, it’s never the woman. It was never her fault, she never invited anything. The cat calling, the name calling, whatever happened to her.

The same is true if you went and ran in a bra and someone says something to you. You never did anything wrong to invite that comment and it was not about what you were wearing, it’s about what’s happening in their thoughts and their feelings that caused them to act in that particular way. And we have to separate those two things out.

And then, again, you get to decide what you want to wear and what you want to do with your body, always.

Jill: And regardless of your size too. Because I think that if you are a traditionally thin woman and you run in a sports bra, you’re going to get a different type of attention from men than if you are a plus size woman running in a sports bra, right? And so it’s like the circumstance is the same, woman running in a sports bra. And it’s like society feels entitled to share their opinions and to make judgments about who we are based on what we’re wearing.

And if you are a thin woman wearing a sports bra and out running, then the assumption often is oh, look at her, she’s showing off. And if you’re a fat woman wearing a sports bra, you know, the assumption is like how dare she? Who does she think she is? Cover that up. And it’s like what the fuck, right? Just let us run, please.

Judith: Right, and like to break it down to its pair thing, the woman running in whatever she decided to run in never invited the behavior of the other people in the story. Like thin woman, skinny woman, tall woman, short woman, fat woman, plump woman, like the woman in the story never ever invited the behavior of the other humans. That was always up to them and we get to decide what we make of it.

But no, my friends, it’s not like you invited attention, whether we call it “negative” or “positive.” We didn’t do anything to invite that, humans are being humans around us. And I just want us to separate that stuff out, whatever size body you’re in.

Jill: Yeah, and I think the other thing is people are going to do shit, right? People are going to make comments and we can spend all of our thoughts thinking they shouldn’t be doing that, how dare they? It doesn’t really stop the behavior of other people because we can’t control other people’s behavior.

So I love you went through the experience of like if somebody says something to you, you may feel shame, you may feel anger, but what’s important is what you say to yourself, right? It’s not what you say to yourself about that other person because their behavior is beyond your control. It’s what you say to yourself about yourself that’s so important.

Judith: Yeah. Can you have your own back, whatever the other humans are going to do? And that’s a life lesson for every area of your life, my friends. Can you have your own back when the humans make comments, and say things, and have opinions? Because they will.

Jill: Yeah.

Judith: And this is not to gaslight you, some things we can all find repugnant and just wrong, but at the end of the day how do you talk to yourself inside your own head about yourself and your body? That’s the stuff we want to focus on. And to just kind of give you some love, that there’s a nicer way of seeing this and talking to yourself and being in your own body.

Jill: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So there’s one thing that I kind of want to, we talked a lot about arms and like showing off arms, but I want to talk a little bit about spandex.

Judith: Yes.

Jill: Because this is something that I definitely am, and you and I have talked about this in the past, like I definitely am self-conscious of my stomach. Which, by the way, I have an enormous butt, I am not self-conscious about my butt at all. I just looking at her, she is glorious, right? I just feel like everyone should be looking at my butt because it is spectacular. But please don’t look at my stomach. Which is mind blowing, right?

Judith: Which is most women. Right, we find an area to fixate on. And usually because of comments we got and there’s some moment where that became the thing we fixated on. I have clients who their heads were too big, their heads were too small.

Jill: Oh my God, that’s awesome.

Judith: Fill in the blanks. This is being a human, right? The head example I use, and not because I think it was funny, but because like this is how we’re wired. I just want to give it as an example because we’re like, “Wait, their heads?” Well, yeah, some people have thoughts about the size and shape of their heads, just like bellies and booties, which we talk about, I think, more commonly. But yeah, this is what humans do, we fixate on things. And for you, it’s your tummy.

And here’s what I want to say, and this was something I talk about with my clients all the time. Oftentimes you’re like, “But people will see my booty, people will see my belly.” And I’m like, okay, but unless you’re running around unclothed, what they’re actually seeing is the imprint of your body against fabric.

And when we’re wearing spandex, since that’s particularly what we’re talking about, that’s all we’re seeing, folks. I’m seeing the imprint of your belly against some fabric and you’re running tights. I say that so neutral and you’re like, “That’s a funny way of putting it.” I do that on purpose. We’re seeing the imprint of something, like that’s all that’s occurred.

The rest is just your story about your stomach and how you think it should be. But I want you to separate that out from what’s actually occurring, which is skin, adipose tissue, some organs, some muscles, some bones are being encased in fabric. That’s all that’s happening.

Jill: Yeah, that’s a very specific circumstance and it takes all of the oomph out of it because it takes all of the like, but it’s gross, but it’s too fat. You know, like all of the things. It’s like, nope, here’s the circumstance.

Judith: Yeah, like here’s what’s actually happening. There’s some skin, and some muscle, and some tissue encased in some fabric. Like it’s so unsexy, it’s so boring, right? But brains love drama and we like to make oomph things up, like but you don’t know, it’s disgusting. That’s how we like to juice things up, but the truth is it’s kind of boring.

Jill: And the irony is that spandex makes you smaller, right? Like that’s the irony of the whole fucking thing. Like when I look at my body when I’m wearing tights versus when I’m wearing something else, I look like a full size smaller in tights. Even though, even though every single curve is on display, I feel like you’re almost less on display in spandex than you are in some other types of clothes, even though it feels like we’re more on display.

Judith: Well and it’s just, I mean, a lot of us are not used to wearing clothing so close to our body, and that takes its own getting used to. And, you know, I have clients who, they literally don’t know what their own bodies look like because they wear clothing that’s so incredibly big on them. So it is a little bit of a shock to the system.

There’s a disconnect for them of like what they actually look like in a pair of running tights versus their over baggy, you know, two sizes too big trousers or jeans. Well, yeah, boo, that’s going to look a little different in the mirror. And if you haven’t spent a lot of time actually looking at yourself in the mirror, it’ll be a little bit of a shock because you actually don’t know what you look like because you never look.

Jill: So that kind of made me realize that when you’re wearing, and I’ve been wearing spandex for like so long that I’m trying to put myself in the place of somebody who’s never put on a pair of running tights before and has only worn like skirts, or pants, or whatever. But it is, it’s like a whole different sensation, right? Because it interacts with your skin and your adipose tissue in a different way than a pair of jeans does, or even a pair of yoga pants, right?

Like yoga pants are still like fairly loose, you know, they’re almost like pajamas, right? And tights are snug. And so, yes, I can imagine that for somebody putting that on for the first time, their brain might be like setting off all kinds of alarm bells. Because it’s like, “Wait, wait, wait, wait, this is rearranging how my body is.” Because it does, it kind of like rearranges. Like I put on my running tights and my butt like lifts up, right?

That’s just how spandex works, right? And it kind of like shifts your flesh from one place to another. And I can see how that would be a little bit maybe triggering or, I don’t know, just kind of like set off a little bit of alarm bells in your brain of like, “Wait, what’s happening? Because this is not a skirt.”

Judith: Or for our neurodiverse peeps, right, like there’s a whole language in neurodiversity around like being sensory sensitive, right? And like being really sensitive to sounds, or to smells, or to noises, or to just sensations of fabric. And we’re like, we can understand that in that context, but guess what? We’re all still human, right? So we might have some sensory stuff that comes up for us when we feel that amount of fabric that close to our body.

So there’s a physical sensation of it and then there’s also the emotional component because of all the things we’ve been told about wearing clothes that are “too tight.”

Jill: Yeah.

Judith: So we get it, y’all. But, but, but, what if we just ran an experiment where we just walked around in some spandex and we allowed ourselves to feel the physical things, have the thought cascade and the emotions come up, and to remind ourselves that nothing has gone wrong?

Jill: Yeah. yeah, I absolutely love that too. It’s like let’s just be a scientist and see what happens when we run an experiment. And you can do all of these experiments in the privacy of your own home, by the way. You don’t have to do your experiments outside.

Judith: Yeah, just like Jill’s naked treadmill experiment, right?

Jill: Nobody else, there were no witnesses to that. There were zero witnesses because I was like, if this goes badly, and it did, I didn’t want anybody to see. It’s so uncomfortable, y’all, so uncomfortable.

So actually, I was just reminded, so my ex-husband is neurodivergent and he had a very similar tactile thing when it came to his clothing as well. And so there were certain fabrics that he’s like, “That’s a no for me. I’m just not going to.” And he didn’t. And unless it was like bitter cold out, he would not wear tights. If it was like, you know, 10 degrees outside he would wear tights underneath his shorts.

But yeah, he was somebody who wore super loose clothing all the time because he just did not care for the sensation on his skin. And if that’s you, then that’s totally fine, right? You do you. I think I just want to make sure that we don’t have any folks that are holding themselves back because they’re worried that other people are going to have terrible opinions of them.

Judith: Yeah, and that’s what we’re speaking to.

Jill: Yeah, other people’s opinions suck. They really do. That’s my belief and I’m sticking to it.

So okay, so let’s talk about, because you’ve got something coming up soon where you’re actually going to help people kind of create a way of dressing themselves that feels good, that helps them build confidence. So can you talk a little bit about that?

I mean, I don’t know if anybody else has just been listening to you thinking like, “I have got to get more of this woman in my life.” I mean that’s how I felt when you and I first started working together. I was like, “I need more of this woman in my life.” And I’m like, “Okay, well now I’m just going to be friends with her whether she likes it or not.”

Judith: Now we’re friends, it’s like, “Hi, friend. What you doing?”

Jill: And now we’re friends, yeah. But yeah, I would love for people to hear more about what you do and how they can kind of follow up and follow you and get more of you.

Judith: Yeah. So upcoming is a style clarity challenge and it’s a mini style makeover, y’all. So it’s kind of amazing what happens in just 30 minutes a day during the course of the challenge. Like the transformations that women have like getting rid of bras that don’t fit because we do a community bra bust and a panty toss. Yes, we do it as a community, it’s so fun.

And we teach you how to jumpstart your style makeover. So we give you a really simple process to get started or to up-level. So we have folks who aren’t showering, aren’t getting dressed at all and we help them to start the makeover process. And then we have some who’ve gone through several rounds with us and like to hang out. And they’re just there to up-level that next place they want to up-level to as they craft their own style makeover.

So we are in sort of the makeover liberation revolution business, to put it lightly, right? To put it mildly. Like I really, in my program, which is Style Masterclass, so we invite folks who go through the challenge into Style Masterclass. It’s really about what’s not working for you, what’s not serving you, and giving you permission to get rid of it. Whether it’s bras, or undies, or tights, whatever your pleasure is, right?

And then we start to craft for you, we define your personal style. Very, very individualized, we’re not going to pigeonhole you into categories. Every single woman who comes through gets to decide for herself what that is. And then from how you define it based on your lifestyle, your personal preferences, we help you to craft a wardrobe that meets that criteria.

And we shop for you, which I think is always fun to tell people because they’re like, “Oh my God, I hate shopping.” Like we got you, we shop for you. We also teach you how to shop for yourselves. So by the end you have like a mini mighty wardrobe that fits your lifestyle, that fits your body, that fits your personal style. And getting ready in the morning is not a thing. It’s like no drama, we teach you the process.

So that’s what we do. So come hang out with us for the upcoming challenge because it’s always fun in there to learn about all the women from different backgrounds and like places that they come from. We have a good time.

Jill: So how can they get in on the challenge?

Judith: Yeah, so you can join the challenge by going to judithgaton.com/styleclarity.

Jill: Awesome, and we’re going to have a link in the show notes. But one more time for people in the back.

Judith: Yeah, judithgaton.com, I’ll say it like a sexy voice. J-U-D-I-T-H-G-A-T-O-N.com/style clarity, and that’s one word.

Jill: I love that. And how can people follow you on Instagram?

Judith: Yeah, you could just go to Judith Gaton to follow me on Instagram, my handle is my name.

Jill: I love it. And Judith’s Instagram is delightful. It makes me happy every day.

Judith: Thank you, friend. Thank you.

Jill: I love that. And you have a podcast too, let’s talk about your podcast.

Judith: Yeah, I have a podcast called Style Masterclass, it’s the name of my program. So there’s a whole back catalog, you can feel free to binge through. The episodes are about like eight to 10 minutes in length, so it’s super, super actionable. Once you listen, you can take action right away.

Jill: I love that. All right, thank you so much, friend, for being here today.

Judith: Thank you. This was awesome, we had fun. People are just going to hear us laughing.

Jill: I know. I know.

Judith: It’s so good.

Jill: We always have a good time. All right. All right, well that is it for this week. Now, all my running friends, take your shirts off and get your asses out there and run.

Judith: Everybody needs to see that, y’all, everybody.

Jill: Everybody needs to see that.

Hey, real quick before you go, if you enjoyed listening to this episode you have got to check out Up And Running. It’s my 30 day online program that will teach you exactly how to start running, stick with it, and become the runner you have always wanted to be. Head on over to notyouraveragerunner.com/upandrunning to join. I would love to be a part of your journey.